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It's a 1982 22r, runs very good for the most part but I"m having a hard time getting rid of the delay/stumble when I floor it. There is an approx 1 second delay and then it takes off like a bat out of hell. It happens pretty much no matter what RPM I'm at.
i'm NOT using a fuel pressure regulator but do plan to order either the Weber one from LCE or the less expensive Holley one from Summit. I tried connecting a fuel pressure gauge but the needle just bounces rapidly between 2.5 and 6 lbs. I called HOlley and checked forums and that seems to be a well known problem solved only by using a regulator or getting an oil filled gauge.
I have noticed what appears to be some leaks though, SEE PICS. When I spray carb cleaner around the base, there is no change in RPM so it must not be leaking much. ANY SUGGESTIONS BASED ON THE DARKER FLUID RESIDUE WHICH YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE IN THE PICS?
In addition to getting the regulator, I"m thinking of getting the 1 piece adaptor from Redline or the Spiral from LCE.
Without a fuel pressure regulator, you are basically negating the purpose and function of the floats within the carb. Instead of the float closing the needle to limit the fuel level in the bowl, the extra pressure is simply pushing fuel past the needle and flooding the bowl. The delay/stumble when you punch the gas is a result of inducing a rich mixture that can't properly burn. Get a FPR and your problems will likely be solved
Thank you very much Dave. I"m a big fan of your threads/posts so I know you absolutely know what you are talking about. Did you happen to check out the pics? Did it look like I have a leak around that 2 piece adapter or carb gaskets? I"m thinking about replacing it with the 1 piece from Redline or Spiral from LCE.
Also, I noticed on your thread you used the Holley fuel pressure regulator. I've seen others say the Weber one (while more expensive), is better. Do you have any opinion on that?
Again, that you very much for your time.
I am 100% satisfied with the LCE spiral adapter - I would go with that. Two piece adapters are garbage - You can't expect two cast surfaces to seal up properly.
A FPR is a FPR - if it properly regulates the pressure then it will work. My Holley works perfectly fine, but I would recommend an oil filled gauge so you can reduce the needle bounce.
DAVE, may I ask you a question?
I was installing my LCE spiral adapter tonight and noticed the gasket between the upper and lower manifold looked as if it may have been leaking at some point (see pics). I'm definitely not losing water and there is no leak, but I decided to check the tightness of the bolts on the lower intake manifold that thread up into the upper intake. Several of them were not real tight. Without using much pressure and a very light duty short ratchet, I was able to get 1/2 to one full turn on most of those nuts. EXCEPT, on of them didn't tighten and then it broke. I wasn't even using much force at all tightening it since it wouldn't tighten. Attached is a picture of the bolt that broke (including a good one in the hole next to it that I pulled out to compare), and 2 pics of the place where the bolt broke (although you can't see the hole since it's from at the bottom of the lower intake). I tried to get a good bolt to thread in the hole and it won't. Here are my questions...
1- Does water travel through that spot or just vacuum?
2- Should I put some permatex in the hole and leave it alone or get the broken bolt out?
3- I can't get a drill bit on it since there isn't enough clearance underneath so I would have to take the manifold off ? Assuming I have to do that, would I just get the intake manifold gaskets from a toyota dealer?
4- Or should I buy an aftermarket intake like an Offenhauser? As of right now, my engine is stock. I might do some mods to it later, but who knows.
5- PLEASE CHECK OUT THE PICS. In the one, I have the screwdriver pointed to where the bolt would be (although you can't see it since it threads from the bottom up. At least you can get a good look at the gasket. It's the closest lower intake manifold bolt to the center of the intake where the carb goes. WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Those gaskets look ok?
Here is the broken bolt and a good one next to it. The broken one looks RUSTY. Not sure why it's rusty and the other one isn't?
That yellow staining is varnished fuel. The source is likely from a leaking gasket between the carb and the intake manifold. The part that you are calling the "lower intake manifold" is actually the intake flange/water plate. It houses the cold mixture heater (CMH) which is directly exposed to the air/fuel mixture within the intake. It also routes water through the coolant passages in the intake. Unless you live in a ridiculously cold climate, I would recommend replacing the water plate with one of these:
You likely have the 11 bolt plate, but look under your intake to verify. Those water block plates from LCE just eliminates the CMH. The CMH is only needed to heat the air/fuel mixture during cold starts. With a Weber and moderate climates, the CMH isn't really needed. I don't have one on my truck and I haven't started it in over two week, but I guarantee that I could go out to my 30* garage right now and my truck would start up with no problem at all with a 2 second bump of the ignition.
As for that broken bolt, get a bolt extractor and remove it or drill it out and re-tap the hole. The reason why I suggest that you do that (as well as replacing the water plate) is because that stock plate is very thin so without all of the bolts installed you will open yourself up to vacuum, fuel and coolant leaks. You can even get coolant in your intake thus running it through your combustion chambers - not an ideal situation.
DAVE, thank you.....
Yes, that evidence of varnished fuel is why I took the weber 2 piece adapter off and decided to replace it with the spiral adapter. I"m in Central FL and never take it out when it's under 50 degrees, so I don't need it. It looks like I might as well pull the manifold and order the block from LCE. Arghh, another wait for parts. Patience is a virtue, and one that I lack. So if I understand you correctly, getting rid of the CMH reduces the likelihood of problems with leaks down the road and that is why you recommend blocking it off? WOULD I NEED A NEW GASKET FOR THE INTAKE MANIFOLD (between the upper part and the lower part (flange/water plate), or would that no longer be required since we are blocking it off?
Also, my car has no heat or a/c, or even controls for it. Once I remove that manifold, I'll probably have access to blocking off more unnecessary water lines. I now there are some pretty big hoses running under the intake and exhaust manifolds and I don't believe any of them are hooked up to anything. So I'll revisit your excellent de-smog piece and get the other block off plates too.
THANK YOU
The CMH is simply what it says - I heats a cold fuel mixture. In temperate climates or, even better, warmer climates like Florida, you don't need assistance heating up the mixture during cold starts. Plus, the Weber has better atomization of air/fuel so the need for a heated mixture is reduced even more.
You shouldn't have to cap off any additional water lines if you already don't have the heat hooked up. You still have the option to run the heater hose with the plate from LCE, but it isn't necessary if you don't want to. The plate will come with all the gaskets and bolts needed to install the plate. If you wish to keep the fuel lines under the intake manifold (like I did), I would recommend getting a couple longer bolts to re-install that fuel line bracket.
I installed the spiral adaptor and I"m still getting a delay when I give it full throttle despite the fact that the old adaptor had a tiny leak which I was hoping was the problem. I have a new dizzy, good vacuum, new plugs/wires, rebuilt 32/36 weber, set timing, tried with different jets in carb, etc. Runs fine but just has that delay, but there is a strong gas smell. No evidence of leak on garage floor or anywhere around fuel pump or carb. The fuel pump was replaced around 5 years ago (previous owner) but the car hasn't been run more than 1k miles since then.
I decided to try replacing the fuel pump (it's definitely pumping but I"m out of other stuff to replace) and wanted to add a fuel regulator. I started looking at how the lines were run. There is a small simple plastic fuel filter under the hood. The lines don't seem like they are run right. I"m curious whether this could be causing my problem.
I have 2 lines going to my cheap aftermarket inline fuel filter. One is coming from the gas tank, the other runs to the TOP FITTING of the mechanical fuel pump (the one that is supposed to go back to the tank). The fuel line running into the "IN" line of the fuel pump comes directly from the gas tank. The out line runs direct to the carburetor (no filter on it). And as I mentioned before, the 3rd line on the fuel pump (the top one) runs to the OUT line of the fuel filter. DOES THAT SEEM RIGHT TO YOU? My pump is working and car runs very good. only issues are the 1 second delay/stumble when giving it full throttle and the very strong gas smell. I also notice a lot of air bubbles in the clear fuel filter when I'm running it, particularly when I turn off the motor.
ANY IDEAS? This is an early 80's desmogged 22r with no charcoal canister. Thank you for your time.
Last edited by Joey22r; 02-21-2016 at 12:30 PM.
Reason: Clarification
DAVE, I switched the lines around to how I think it should be and it runs exactly the same. I'm still getting a heavy gas smell and the hesitation when I floor it . I'm thinking more and more it's something with my 32/36 weber. It seems when the secondary side is activated, there is a delay. I've tried diff jets, idle jets, air corrector, have rebuilt the carb, etc. I have a new dizzy, plugs, wires, fuel filter, etc.
I haven't tried a new fuel pump, a pressure regulator, or a new carb, but have tried about everything else. ANY SUGGESTIONS?
I've gotten to know those guys so well I now feel obligated to send them holiday cards and an invitation to my daughters wedding. haha... They are sick of me I think. Super nice guys but I've followed the directions to a T and the keep insisting it's linkage and their settings but it's not. I've been over that so many times.
I'm down to 2 parts that haven't been replaced, the carb and the fuel pump.
Before I start with the details, if you do not have a fuel pressure regulator then that is only going to complicate your problem. Without a FPR, you will be blowing the main jet right off its seat thus negating the function of the floats and flooding the bowl. If you don't have a FPR, that's probably why you have a rich fuel smell.
When you punch the 32/36 into the secondaries, the accelerator pump has the tendency to not be able to keep up OR the secondaries are dumping too much fuel into the mixture. If it is lean then you need a larger secondary main jet and smaller secondary air corrector (or combination of both). If it is rich then you need a smaller secondary main jet or a larger secondary air corrector (or combination of both).
But before you do anything, get a fuel pressure regulator and set it to about 2.5 PSI. Anything you do before that is simply a waste of your time.
Thank you Dave.
I have the FPR and will install it by tomorrow and let you know. I'm confident with your knowledge that we have a good shot at finding the solution.
I've had that carb open at least 8 times experimenting with diff jets, a/c, and idle jets and none of them alleviated or even worsened the problem noticeably.
I'll update you by tomorrow.
thank you
Hello Dave.
I installe the FPR, tried it on 2.5, 3, 3.5, and 4 and test drove it after each adjustment. It had absolutely no impact on my delay/bog/stumble....whatever you want to call it. The stumble only lastd about a second and it happens when I give it anything over 80% throttle really fast. If I slowly work my way to full throttle, then it doesn't do that. I did notice something though.
I took a few pics and decided to take one facing down into the carb with barrels closed and at full throttle with barrels open. When I opened it after a test drive, I noticed smoke coming up out of the barrel on the secondary side. I didn't notice any coming out the primary side. SEE PIC. Is that normal?
I also added a few other pics so you can see the linkage, springs, etc.
Any other suggestions? Keep in mind I've tried many different jets, a/c, idle jets, diff float settings, different timing, new fuel filter, plugs, wires, rebuilt the carb (but didn't let it sit in parts cleaner the way many recommend), new distributor, etc. The only parts I have not replaced is the fuel pump and the carb.
Ideas....suggestions?
OK, Stop messing with EVERYTHING and start back from the beginning. Unless you live at high elevations, the factory jetting from Weber is typically adequate. Your carb is not smoking - that is fuel vapor that was dumped into the intake after the engine was shut off. It is indicative of a rich condition (too much fuel). The good news is that it is only coming out of the secondary barrel. If it were coming out of both barrels then I would suggest starting with the main jet and float levels, but since it is only one barrel then it should be isolated to the jetting on the secondary barrel. It also means that you likely don't have an accelerator pump issue.
Before you continue to diagnose, I know you messed with your fuel lines so route the supply hose from the tank to the passenger side inlet on the fuel pump, route the middle outlet on the fuel pump back to the return on the fuel tank and route the driver side outlet on the fuel pump to the FPR then on to the carb fuel inlet. Set the FPR to 2.5 PSI and DO NOT TOUCH IT.
Now reset your Carb to the initial best lean idle settings - idle speed screw 1 to 1.5 turns in after initial contact with the throttle linkage and the mixture screw out 2 turns from bottoming out. More info about baseline settings and tuning can be found here:
Fire it up and dial in the carb per the instructions in the above link (Mixture FIRST then idle speed). After you get it close, CHECK YOUR TIMING. You should be at about 5-8* BTDC at about 850 RPM with the vacuum advance hose on the distributor disconnected and capped off. Make sure that it is advancing to about 18-20* at about 2200-2400rpm with the vacuum advance connected. If you do not have a timing light, I suggest that you borrow one - you will NEVER get the engine dialed in properly without adjusting the timing.
Now go back and double check the carb settings per the link above as timing may have caused some changes. Take it for a drive and see what it does.
If it is still stumbling hitting the secondary, try dropping down the secondary main jet down a size. If that doesn't help, drop down a size again. Keep dropping down one size at a time until it runs best (or find the middle between where it runs worse). THEN move on the secondary air corrector. Bump up to the next size air corrector and keep bumping up until you find the best results.
The idea behind tuning a carb is to change ONE THING AT A TIME until you get it run better. THEN move on to the next setting and adjust that until you get it to run better and so on. A combination of all the "better" settings of each variable will ultimately yield you the best overall settings for your application.
On another note, that carb looks terrible. If the amount of varnish on the outside of the carb is any indicator of what the inside looks like then you either need to clean and rebuild the one you have or buy a new one (a new one will yield less headaches).
Thank you Dave.
I literally did all of that yesterday. I borrowed and still have a quality timing light with a dial. After getting the carb dialed in (it's at 1.5 turns in after touching on the idle speed and around 1.75 turns out on the mix. I even tried 0 degrees btdc (blocked vacuum line) all the way up to 10 degrees. It changed how it ran a bit but did nothing for the bog/stumble. I did notice when I advanced it up towards 8-10 degreess btdc, the idle went higher. I"m not sure that means anything. So double checked carb settings and still no fix.
I've already tried multiple jets and a/c and no change. The accel pump has been replaced twice.
I"m not sure why I didn't clean the varnish off the outside when I had it off but the inside of the carb looks brand new. I've rebuilt it once and did a partial rebuild another time, all in the last few months. I've had the top off so many times ....probably 10 times in last 2 months. Im working with Weber on any other ideas but a new carb is on my short list.
Do you see any benefit in me taking the carb off and putting it in a bucket with parts cleaner for a few days? The carb is clean on the inside but I can't speak for parts of the carb that I can't see with the top off.
Does the secondary throttle shaft bind or is it sloppy in the throttle body? Ditto for the primary shaft. You'll probably have to remove all the linkage and do it by hand.
Dave...I've been looking through your rebuild pics and recall seeing boxes of parts from Engnbldr, but now I cant find those pics...where they be?
02-03-2016, 04:48 PM
