synical33

man you are fast in the replies dude. thanks a lot i greatly appreciate it. Funny I was already planning on the Premier line anyways cause it looks that much better. Like i said thanks a lot people you guys are being a great help.

Buki

You might also remember that if you only change the HU that there are little individual amps at the speakers and that they might not work that well with the new HU.
IMHO I would go to a higher end store like a Good Guys (if you live near one) and listen to the decks and find the one you like and find the exact same one on Ebay you can save tons of $$. BE careful there though and look at the feedback rating before bidding. You can make speaker mounts easily with MDF, although they might be a little intrusive and not very stock looking. All you do is get the MDF and cut whatever hole size you need and place over door panel where the old hole is and screw it in with some metal screws. Radio shack and some other places carry speaker cloth of different colors so you can match your interior. Learned my lesson the hard way and paid for custom panels and took them appart to fix something in the door and found out how they were made. Another important thing as stated above dynamat or sound proof the doors on the inside. you will get a much better sound. You can also order Qforms speaker mounts that replace your old kick panels if you are afraid of doing your own custom work.
http://www.cardomain.com/item/QLCQLK1006
Don't know how these sound so someone might chime in here.

synical33

hmm what if I take it to Best Buy and get these speakers installed along with the Head Unit. Or just get the Head Unit installed and i'll do the speakers on my own? Would that sound like a better plan or what? Cause I am now leaning towards the fact that I would have to create custom pieces in order for me to get the speakers on and I have a final decision made for the speakers im getting im picking them up on Sunday and here they are:

Focal Access Speakers 6.5" (Front)
Focal Speakers 4" (Rear)

That is what I am going for and im sticking with it. Now for those speakers should I get the Head Unit along with them as well or not?

green91runner

yea, as i said.. best to change out the head unit at the same time or before the stock speakers... don't want to risk some noise damaging your nice new speakers (plus you may be surprised at how good just a new HU makes your stock speakers sound, can really make a difference). as for what buki said about the amplifiers, there shouldn't be an issue, if you are installing it yourself just make sure that you hook up the remote wire for the stock amp (if you dont, it just wont work, lol) but as it seems your leaning towards a professional job its a non-issue.

as for custom boxes... you really shouldn't need them if your getting the same size speakers as you already have, just unscrew the old ones pop off the wires and then the reverse for the new speakers (if your going to let the HU power them), with an amp, its a lil different, as im sure you know.

as for dynomat...great idea but, i wouldn't waste my money on it, look around yt.. there are a few threads about 'peal n seal', this seems like a great alternative, a fraction of the cost for basically the same thing. definetely line the doors with this stuff, bob has a GREAT install guide to sound proof your hole 3rd gen.

great to hear.

synical33

You just answered my question green91runner. It seems as if I dont need this DynaMat thing huh? Can you please supply me with bob's instructions please. I would like to see how this Peal n Seal thing works. If its about sound deadening why not I guess since im already wanting to do this. I can see how this will happen: i'll be getting the speakers on Sunday and let them chill in the garage til the next weekend and by the next check get the HU and see if I can get someone else to install the HU for me while I do the installation of the speakers myself. Would that sounds like a sane plan?

EDIT: David has already sent me the instructions but im not sure if its the same ones you speak of. Is there a place I can locate them myself or not?

EDIT #2: I found it no need to worry on it no more and they are the ones David sent me. SWEEEEEEEEEEET!!!

frankenrunner

what up, synical33 ??

just to chime in my two cents worth here:

first off, props to green91runner, nieuwendyk-25(got spacers?), buki, & particularly paranoidandroid(good audio newbie info!), nonetheless i'll have to log a slightly different opinion.

basically, i prescribe to the age old "out of sight-out of mind" addage, having learned from the mistakes of my elders.

with this said, i suggest sticking w/the stock head unit(HU) & merely upgrading your speakers & perhaps installing an amp to power the requirements of the new speakers( i mean, you can upgrade w/new speakers rated for the stock power output, or you can upgrade w/speakers rated for higher power handling, which would require an amp to trully be able to appreciate them), which is what i have done.

i've got the stock HU tied to a 700w-4channel (for my 4" front & rears) & a 500w 2channel (that i've mono'd for the sub & tweeters[which have their own adjustable crossovers]) Alpine V12 series amp w/PAC brand "line converters", humming along w/power sustained via a pair of 1 farad caps.

the front & rear 4" 'ers are polkaudio's "EX3 series", while the sub is a 12"- Orion XTR Pro in a custom sealed enclosure, w/the tweets being, again, polkaudio's 1"-"dx3000 series" & all you see is the sub that i take in w/me @ night when i'm out & about.

what this all boils down to is that i believe that the "sound" (what you hear) comes from the speakers, not the HU, sort of a "reverse engineering" perspective compared to what pretty much everyone else thinks.

don't get me wrong, a sweet, cool looking HU would be a good thing & i will probally upgrade somewhere, sometime, down the road, i just have'nt found it to be necessary @ this time as i'm not into the audio thing to "see" it, i'm in it to "hear" it, so the "bling" can wait until the stock HU craps out.

until then, the japanese seem to have the technological side of the market cornered (just "who" made the 'puter you are viewing this site with?!?) & i get great reception & clarity (perhaps also attributable to the in line noise supressor i installed) w/the stock HU & when the would be thieves care to take a look, all they see is stock & there's not a terribly large market for "stock" , i would guess, because i never see them in the pawn shops!

with that said, i hope i've offered insight as to both suggested components, as well as installation options &, by the way, i accept all audio challenges w/ my stock HU.

nieuwendyk-25

I totally agree frakenrunner! Which is what I said in my post or my private messages to synical33 (so I guess you did not read that) . Once you have had your vehicle broken into you have a different outlook. My Speakers, amp and changer are all hidden. Just make sure you take that sub in EVERY NIGHT! I left my pullout Alpine in my Jeep (hardtop) once and that was it. I also agree about the stock unit being adequate. The one thing I think is better in the aftermarket HU is tone and bass controls. To me it is minimally better. Funny thing happened today though...my 6 disc indash started giving me ERR-1. Guess its on its last leg. I do have a spare though.

I will say upgrading the size of my speakers was the biggest improvement.

frankenrunner

"nieuwendyk-25", just to clarify:

i am in opposition only to your input in regards to your selection of "Focal" for speakers in that i suggest "polkaudio"; i fully agree w/your chosen installation method.

further, while i see that you're pimping the "Miller & Krestel(?)", i myself am also pimping the "polkaudio" for my home theater/stereo enjoyment...you simply cannot beat proven, patented perfection & the previous challenge, likewise, applies here.

also, you may want to simply try cleaning the cd player as their pickups can become dirty & i did'nt go w/"bigger" speakers, they are the "stock" size, i only went w/better, much better.

nieuwendyk-25

Hey FRANKENRUNNER:
I was trying to be funny with the "I guess you didn't read that" as it was only posted to synical33 in a private post. I did not mean to offend you. I am glad you clarified what you didn't say in your last post (your attack on my speaker opinion). I was simply clarifying that I was glad someone on this post agreed with me on the lack of needing a fancy HU first over the upgrading the speakers first; Also, the fact that stealth is the way to go. By the way, I'm not "pimping" anything; Just stating I have done my research on home theatre speakers. If you don't know M&K I would invite you to give them a listen. To imply that they are not "proven and patented" makes me laugh. They are the speaker of choice for THX, Sony Studios, Lucas Film and many others (the guys who make the 5.1,6.1,7.1 tracks). They have a realistic and clean sound that is warm enough for music and dramatic enough for movies. Their subwoofers are among the best on the market. They fill a large, cathedral ceiling room better than any I have seen. I mean even Bose sound good in a closet. M&K also stands behind all their speakers with a ten year warranty. They are a bit pricy, but you have to know where to shop.

I'm not into bashing in online forums, only telling what worked for me, but since you brought it up, I will defend my position. I think everyone should buy what sounds best to them in their vehicle. To quote my first post: "I have used Alpine, Polk Audio, Boston Acoustics, and Focal. They all have their good points, and there are more pricy brands...but I have had good luck with these." I believe I supported your "Holy" Polks here! I have Polk (I am on a first name basis with them) speakers in my Jeep. They are a good quality speaker, much more durable than the Alpines I had in my Jeep (in my opinion). But to say they are the be-all, end-all I think is a little inflated. Anything sold at Best Buy easily can be topped! The Focals I have sound great. However, they do not all sound great. In one of my post I eluded to my install of their co-ax speakers which are not impressive to say the least. I installed them, first, in my rear doors, listened for a couple of days, sold them at a $50 profit on e-bay and went with the components I had in the front. The effect was a great timber match between the front and rear (something mandatory in home theatre as you well know). There are many brands as good as, or better than Focal and Polk on the market. Many audiophiles swear by Diamond Audio, JL Audio, Boston Acoustics, MB Quart, Etc.

In my setup I wanted everything completely hidden. It is nearly impossible to hide a subwoofer (especially in an SUV). The only answer is to go larger. 4" speakers have no bass response, I find it a joke that car makers put 4" speakers in a large enclosure like a door.

I don't really see me lugging my subwoofer into my office every morning. Secondly Subwoofers tend to exaggerate bass to much for my taste. They do give better headroom to the system in some cases, but tend to make it boomy (many people like that). I think the 6.5" Focal drivers have more headroom than most 6.5" speakers on the market for their cost.

One more thing, I mentioned timber matching, which for those of you who don't know is basically using the same drivers throughout a speaker system to give tone and image balance. My question is, why is this never mentioned in relation to car audio? It makes a huge difference in tone control (unless you have an EQ on each speaker, which I still don't think would make a difference). How can you adjust tone on two completely different speakers with one control. Some, but not many headunits offer this. The midline, almost new Alpine in my Jeep does not.

Anyway, to each his own. All speakers sound different in different vehicles, and in different ears. I was just stating what worked for me in my situation. I do not sell Focal, etc. If you are stuck on Polks that is fine, but you are missing out. There are other great speakers out there. To clarify my Best Buy comment...they mostly sell consumer garbage. The low end of almost every item and brand. i.e.: Sony makes some great HT receivers, but BB only carries their entry level junk. To be fair, your Polk Audio "systems" may be their higher quality stuff! I should not have generalized that statement. Again, sorry if I offended you I do not fire unless fired upon!

green91runner

well, with 4runners at least you have an alternative, just takes some custom work on your side panel... as seen here.
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/show...hlight=storage

It's next on my list of things to do, as I too hate the intrusion of 'mods', the head unit I don't mind, considering my stock HU was a tape deck am/fm... that just wouldn't do this subwoofer mod kills 2 birds with one stone, making it nearly invisible (depending on how you funish it off) and you get to keep all your precious cargo room. (as well as defending the woofer from anything you have in the back.)

nieuwendyk-25

GreenRunner:

Thanks for pointing out that thread... I really like the one covered in vinyl. Those guys did some nice work. If you do this to yours let me know how it sounds.

That storage panel on the 2000 (and other years) is really a joke...I don't get what the nylon straps are for. Anybody know? The shape of the compartment really limits what you can put in there.

this one is cool:

green91runner

yea, i hope to do it really soon, first on the one side, then match it up on the other. personally if it sounds 'decent' that will be good enough for me, as i really want my cargo space back.

i have the nylon straps in mine.. it holds the 'rod' that you use to crank up your bottle jack, or lower down your rear spare, keeps it snug to the compartment, stopping it from banging around.

nieuwendyk-25

The rod and the jack in the 2000 is attatched under the rear right seat. In mine it looks like it should hold some kind of box or first aid kit?

synical33

daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn look at the ruckus i have created in this forum! LOL no but on a serious note you guys are literally assassinating me with so much information that is so relative to the thoughts and processes that i want to pull off. I really enjoy the fact that you guys are really really broad. Not only do you guys mention the topic at hand but also put other factors on the side to think about one of them being getting broken into. I was already thinking ahead of you guys about hiding the components but its like you guys can read minds or its a rather obvious topic to mention. Well im in contact with some guy at WoofersEtc.com and since I dont live too far from these cats i'm gonna go pick up my speakers and stuff. Sweet if you really think about it cause I wont have to pay shipping . So yeah im waiting till they get them Focals back and nieuwendyk-25 im gonna go up a notch with the Focal Access yo. Ill do the stock HU thang so that would make me get an amp. I should just get one amp right and at what power rating should i get it?

nieuwendyk-25

I have a 5 channel Alpine amp. It can run the front four channels and the sub. It's not the most powerful (I think 45W RMS per channel and 100W for channel 5). It's not the greatest amp...I bought it because it just fit under the driver's seat, was flexible (can be bridged if needed), has multiple channels and I got it for about half price. My friend owns a high-end sound store and they just went totally home theatre (so they closed out all their car stereo stuff). I also got a new Alpine changer for $100!

There are a lot of decent amps out there that will work just fine. Alpine's V-power amps are pretty good I understand, but there are better ones out there. I have seen mixed reviews of Rockford Fosgate (I think it depends on the model). Brax and McIntosh are high end amps that i think are pretty pricey.

Check the other posts by doing a search for amps to find out what people are liking. Unless you are running massive or multiple subs you really just want something to clean up the signal and give it a boost. Something rated like what I have will probably do fine. Mine really boosted the bass response. You will find that Focal speakers are very efficient (so they don't need alot of power. However they can handle alot also. I am not running a sub, and if I add one it will just be for a little boost. My amp would not be too great for multiple subs. You might ask the guys at woofersetc what they like. I know they carry alot of different brands.

frankenrunner

hey, NIEUWENDYK-25, wars are started over misunderstandings such as what seems to abound here, but i'm not here to start any wars.

so o'kay, my bad ("?!") on the whole "...i guess you did'nt read..." bit because i could'nt read it as it was a PM sent to synical33 !?! inasmuch as this was the case, i thought that i was being berated for not knowing something that i should have known &/or been privy to & became defensive because that is how you presented it to me. tell you what, what say we compromise & share the blame on this one, o'kay?

i have checked out the "M&K's"(i do do my research) @ the local audiophile shop that they were "pimping" out in the main lobby(not bad at all), then i picked up a pair of the lower range tower speakers by "Polk"(as that was all that was available in the store) from their display area & carried them out to the main lobby & set them up by the "M&K" pro series studio monitor ones for a side by side comparison & ended up walking out of the store with reaffirmed justification of my "Polk" purchase & alot of surprised looks on the faces of both the store personnel & shoppers alike(i think that this is because the store personnel had been promoting the "M&K's" quite a bit to the people there & then they got "served" by a "walk-in" w/their own merchandise).

i never implied that the "M&K's" were not "proven & patented", only that the "Polk's" were! w/over 20 patents for advances in loudspeaker performance & dozens of awards for innovative, high-quality design that has been repeatedly noted as being technology that is far advanced & well ahead of the rest of the field, even by today's standards & Mr. Polk & Mr. Klopfer have been maintaining this position since 1972 (by the way, i am completely in awed that you are on a first name basis w/both Matthew Polk & George Klopfer, i would really appreciate an opportunity to meet the masters in person although, admittedly, my intentions are a wee bit selfish in that i'd like the hook-up in hopes of getting ahold of a pair of their ever so elusive "flagship" series speakers, you know, the one's they debuted w/back in '72 & literally & figuratively "spanked" [with authority!] the entire competitve field!!!),...all that & they only offer a "lifetime" warranty, though.

a little research on the particular series of speakers that i've got would have revealed that they each have their own adjustable 12 combination point & slope crossovers, which allows me to precisely tailor the system's sound to suit my 'runner's particular acoustics, & my ears, effectively eliminating any concern over "...tone & image balancing..." for the sake of "...timber matching...", because, "...all speakers [do] sound different in different vehicles, and in different ears.", not to mention the fact that the "Alpine" amps prove to be particularly good &/or are especially noted for their built-in, discrete crossover technology, so i've no concern for "...exaggerate(d)...'boomy'... bass..." out of my sub(did i mention that i had done my research?!?).

what all this does is insure that i'm not "...missing out..." on a thing, not even the tiniest sound of a finger tip accidentally brushing against another finger or a fret as the guitar player shuffles his &/or her fingers around through changes in chords as i listen to a tune & feel my tiny (by your standards) 4"ers vibrate the dash, floor board & surrounding area as the player strikes a low chord.

this sort of architectural sculpting of accoustical frequency optimization is primarily unheard of by the general car audio manufacturer because they are basically only concerned with "loudness" to drown out engine, exhaust or surrounding environmental noises, & not necessarily the clarity & quality of audio reproduction, i.e., what we hear, & that's "...why [this is] never mentioned in car audio."

be that as it may, it really does all boil down to what sounds good to you & "...to each his own." don't get me wrong, the "M&K's " are great, i just prefer a more refined, smoother, blended & distinctive sound than that that you get w/the "M&K's", which i liken very much to the sound you get from, say, the "magnaplaner" style speakers that i, personally, find to be a little too tinny & can-like, or perhaps a closer parallel would be "Klipsch's"-"KSP Monitor Series" speakers, whereas i find the "Polk's" to offer a fuller, well rounded, yet defined & richer sound that i am able to enjoy through the distinctively discrete imaging of "Harmon Kardon's" flagship tuner & "Krell's" vacuum tube amplifier(oh yeah, did you happen to catch in another post or two of mine that i am a second-natured audiophile & to us, "pricey" is'nt an issue when it comes to musical enjoyment)

but alas, you like what you like & i like what i like & that's o'kay because if we were all the same, our world would pretty much suck. i never intended to be doing any "bashing" in an "online forum" & can only hope that my posts are not construed to be taken as such. so, what do you say, let's call it even & we'll mutually agree to disagree & may peace be with us ?!?

later,

-f-

frankenrunner

oh yeah, before i forget, i calmly & un-bashingly(nieuwendyk-25) suggest that you should determine your choice of amp power per channel output rating depending on the wattage requirements of the speakers that you select, "synical33", as you want to make sure that you are supplying enough power to them in order to be able to enjoy them @ the operating level that they are designed for for your listening pleasure.

by the way, a general rule of thumb when it comes to amp output/power is that the more, the better in that you can adjust the gain to meet your particular requirements. however, if there's not enough output/power, the amp ends up straining to push enough wattage to meet the demands you place on it's speakers.

also, while you're @ the store, you'll also want to grab a "capacitor" (expect about $100+/-)for your new system to both insure the the amp has a constant, sustained power level under load to prevent overheating & needlessly taxing it's abilities, as well as that you don't end up putting a strain on your vehicle's own charging system & possibly cause some electrical problems.

later,

your friendly neighborhood second-natured audiophile,

-f-

nieuwendyk-25

You make a good point in your side by side comparison which is sometimes hard to do...if they are in different shops, or not hooked up (the store like to put different brands in different rooms). The shop I got mine from carries KEF, M&K, Klipsch, and at the time Polk and Boston Acoustics.

I will say, one set of "polks" by one set of M&K's or any other speaker proves nothing for the entire line (as you know). If you are looking at music quality I will admit the Polks may have a slightly more clarity and warmth depending on what specific model you are comparing them to.

M&K are made for movies. The system I have is also great for music, but all are not (ie: their smaller 2 driver speakers). As your Polk, my M&K's also have adjustable crossovers.

It might be fair to say certain Polk audio speakers are better for music yet highly acceptable for movies. Likewise certain M&K speakers are better for movies yet highly acceptable for music. I say certain because not all of these companies lines are great for both music and movies

As for warranty, this is a direct quote from the polk website:

"All Polk Audio home loudspeakers have a 5-year parts and labor warranty. The amplifiers used in our "powered speakers" (such as Powered Subwoofers) have a 3-year warranty. All outdoor speakers, such as Atrium Series, have a 2-year warranty. All car and computer speakers have a limited 1-year warranty, except for the Polk/MOMO Series of car speaker models, which are warrantied for 3 years."

Like I said you make a great point about comparison. And you are correct that each person will want and like different things in their speaker systems. And as I stated earlier I have some polks (I was just trying to be funny about the first name thing, 'cause I'm a lazy typer) in my Jeep (not the best place to test them) and I like them fine.

Maybe we should be on a Home Theatre or Audiophile site.

I have enjoyed the debate as I hope you have.

Take it easy!

frankenrunner

all good, upper line brands that each bring their own individual highpoints to the table which is a good thing fore, if not for choice we would all be living in a communist, authoritarian republic faced with but one choice.
yes, it usually is hard to do the "side-by-side" thing. in my favor, though, i'm 6'-6" & weigh 200+lbs., so the store people pretty much seem to want to get out of my way when they see me coming, especially when i'm packing a speaker that they routinely have to use a dolly to move it about the store with.
it's probally also helpful that they like to see someone in there who knows what's what & what they are looking for & i seem to have a small rep in the audiophile circles around here which is probally also a benefit.
all things being relative, you are correct about the variation between speaker models as every designer as a different goal in mind when they set about fabricating a speaker system (see the "...you like what you like & i like what i like..." in previous post).
yes, it has been fun, i like a good debate every now & then. even if for no other reason than to flesh out some things that may have been stewing for a while. and hey, you're lucky that you can even type. i manage only two fingers & no rhythm at all! (ha-ha).
in closing, they've got PLENTY of folks @ those sites to not need anymore, believe me & maybe it is the "first name basis" that prompts the lifetime warranty?
good talking with you,
-f-
p.s. the height & weight also make light work out of packing the sub back & forth, while i can understand how this could be impractical for others, especially since i've built my box with 3/4" MDF(Medium-Density-Fiberboard).

nieuwendyk-25

Since your 6'6" I'm glad we typed this debate...you've got 4.5 inches on me.