Texas_Ace

Ok, today the O2 sensor came in.

I installed it, reset the ECU and started it up.

To have it do the same thing as before, though it seems to correct a little faster now.

But i did some more driving/tuning and talked to gadget again.

And i think that those saying the wideband is the problem could very well be right.

I think that my wideband is reading 15.4 as 14.7. Seeing as the way ya'll explain the way ya'lls trucks AFRs stay, it pretty much does that exact same thing to mine except at 15.4.

It would be nice to see a video of someone elses wideband while driving to compare it to.

At this point i am going to try to finish tuning it best i can, install the 2.2 pulley and get it ready for the dyno.

Then hopfully i can get it on the dyno with their wideband and know exactly what is going on here.

What is really odd is that ANYTIME i go into boost, be it closed or open loop the AFR's suddenly get steady and drop down to a safe level.

I still need to tune it though, i tried speedys maps and the timing map is right on but i have no idea how he needed so little fuel. Mine needs a lot more then most it seems. though if my wideband is really off by about .7 points then speedys maps are pretty darn close. Right now i sit at mid to upper 12:1.

Seeing as my problems are only in vacume i have to wounder what the problem is. It really does act like a vacume leak, i wish i could find it though!

Texas_Ace

So i am out there working on it again and start looking for a vacume leak again.

I have looked that thing over and can't find any. The ONLY thing that might be the problem is the 1-way valve on the IAC hose. It is on there but maybe i have it the wrong way?

On side is flat the otehr has an angel to it like an arrow showing the airflow direction. I have that pointing towards the engine so air can flow to the engine but not back to the TB.

That is the right way right? If not then that is my problem but i think it is right so the only other place that might be leaking is the bypass valve, which i am going to test in a second.

So can someone confirm which direction the 1-way valve is supposed to go please?

Texas_Ace

Ok, just got back in from fixing a small vacume leak i found.

Turns out my hunch about the bypass valve was correct. While swapping the pulleys on the supercharger i relized i could spin the supercharger and help track down any leaks.

After messing with it i found that the bypass valve was indeed leaking a little, it looked like just a very small leak but who knows.

So I pulled it off and then put some RTV on it to seal it up. It is drying rght now. I am going to let it dry for a few hours then start it up witha reset ecu and see what happens.

Anyone remember which way the 1-way valve is supposed to go?

florider

dang t.a. i just spent my morning reading this thread, dont give up. i wish i could help but no such luck. hopfully this vacuume leak is the issue. i am here to offer my support in the " go get um t a" kind of way. i know its not much, but there are, im sure, lots of folks rooting for you to get this going right. good luck, ill be checking in for updates. the wealth of knowledge on these types of sites is incredible, maybe put a link to this thread on ttora or expedition portal or wherever for some more input. just a thought.
f L O

Texas_Ace

Thanks for the support, next post will have a new thory i just came up with.

As for posting it someplace else, while i don't care if people dis my rig, i also don't care to encouage it, having had experiance i know that i would get 80% dissing posts and maybe 20% real help/complements.

That is why i like it here, people know what they are talking about and while they will tell you they don't like something they will also either support people in what they have or try to help them fix it.

Texas_Ace

Ok, so i just started it up and took it for a test drive with the 2.2 pulley. It does need some re-tuning but i have some questions.

First off to the butt dyno it feels ot have more HP but less tourqe with the 2.2. AKA, i get up to speed faster but i don't have that OMG moment when i step on it and feel the extra power. But it does need some tuning, AFR,s are upper 12's to low 13's right now. Would that explain the seeming loss of tourqe? Also what PSI should it boost with the 2.2? I am getting about 7-8psi? compared with the 6-7 i was getting with the stock pulley it doesn't seem like enough increase.

So after starting it back up the AFR's were maybe a point or 2 less then before but it was hunting around so much i could not tell. It was a vacume leak for sure though, where i put the RTV was "sucked" into the gap due to it not being totally dry. still sealed but i could tell that was a leak before.

So last place for a vacume leak is the 1-way valve on the IAC.

Now after driving it around and looking at everything i came up with a new idea that might awnser some things.

As i said earlier the wideband O2 sensor is mounted in the stock O2 sensor location and this causes it to barly stick into the exahust streme, maybe 1/4 inch into the exahust pipe if i am lucky.

Could it be that when at idle/low RPM/load there is not enough exahust to get a proper reading and could that be why when i stomp on it the reading suddenly gets nice and steady and drops down to what it should be?

When i first start it and it is in open loop the wideband is reading that it is off the scale lean which seems quite odd. I can see the exahust like it is running rich though?

then when at idle/low rpms the wideband goes EVERYWHERE, there doesn't seem to be any ryame or reason to it. Usually it stays lean though but will go way rich for no reason. can an engine even run virtually normal at 18:1+ AFR's as it claims mine does at idle/low rpm driving?

I am thinking that the wideband sensor is not mounted far enough into the exahust stream and this is causing all my problems. This is why when i get on it or go WOT the readings suddenly get real steady (like i would assume it is supposed to all the time) and go right where they should be.

Anyone else think this is a reasonable guess?

Texas_Ace

So i went out to try to test my theroy on the wideband o2 sensor by using the OBDII and the stock O2 sensor.

And it doesn't look good for my theroy.

if i am right the stock O2 sensor signal will osiolate voltage when it is right at 14.7 but the voltage will drop off when it is above or below that AFR?

Well when my AFR gauge showed 14.7 the stock o2 sensor went crazy but when the wideband showed leaner the o2 signal died down a lot. Which to me would mean that my wideband is righ on and my truck really is running lean.

I also retuned the ECU by selecting everything and adding 20%. Pretty darn close, a WOT run showed AFR's in the low 11's upper 10". Just need to fine tune it later but for now i would rather it run to rich at WOT then too lean.

While i had the OBD hooked up i decided to watch my fuel trims, surpriseingly they look pretty good with everything pretty much under 10. A few places they drop to -13% when i would let off the gas after a WOT run. but when on the gas they stayed below 10%.

What is odd though is that the long term pretty much stays at +20% or more while the short term varies from -10% to +10%. Why would that be? It is like it knows it needs more fuel to richen it up but for some reason is not adding it?

Another thought hit me in my desperaration. Could my injectors be REAL dirty? I have used some injector cleaner a few times but i highly doubt they have ever been cleaned proper.

I know that speedys maps for the 2.2 pulley ran real lean on mine with the stock pulley. like for some reason his got more fuel then mine, even though i have the new fuel pump and he didn't.

Ian Rogers

so you need a new wideband, and a new check valve. The check valve should allow air in to the lower intake but not out of it. This is because the lower intake sees boost and we don't want that boost coming out to the TB. I would keep looking for vaume leaks, they are going to cause you the biggest problem. I would not run a wideband that is off because you dont know how much it is off by making it worthless for tuning. Maybe its off by 1.1 around 14:1 but it might be off by 2 point around 12:1 or 3 points at 15:1. You need to know what the AFR is to tune open looop.

Texas_Ace

Well the check valve is brand new, and installed right so i doubt that is a problem.

And after watching the OBD and stock o2 sensor i am thinking that my wideband is actually right on.

Something else i thought of in my despreation to not have to sell the SC is could my injectors be REAL dirty? they do have 125k on them.

I ask this because it seems like it is just not getting as much fuel as the ECU thinks it should be. Once again now that i have driven it for a little bit the AFR's are dropping closer to where they should be. Like the ECU is relizing that it needs more fuel then it was programmed stock. So could it be fuel pressure? Well brand new fuel pump (and it ran leaner with the old one) so thats out. The fuel filter is new a year ago but could be clogged.

So that leaves the ony other thing in the fuel system being the injectors. so if they are the problem it is either the ECU or the injectors. Since the truck runs fine i think the ECU is fine and that leaves the injectors not flowing what they should.

Another reason i think this is when i installed speedys maps, the timing map was right on but the fuel map was WAY lean for my truck. He didn't add fuel until ~4psi if i remember right and then he added the little bits of fuel.

Where as in my truck to get the right AFR's in open loop (which i can feel the poer differnce at around 11.8 compared to richer ot leaner. So i know the wideband is acturate to some degree (and more and more i am thinking it is perfect and not my problem).

To get my truck in the right AFR's i have to add fuel from 0psi and by the time it is at redline and max boost i have maxed out the injector?

It is like the stock fuel system is just not able to add enough fuel, or won't for some reason.

But the strage part is i have ran severl bottles of injector cleaner through my truck since i got it. I would think that while not perfect it would have cleaned the injector at least some?

Any ideas?

Texas_Ace

Ok, i think i found part of the problem!!!

So i called gadget again and we talked for a little bit about all that has been going on.

After a little talking we both agreed that it was either a vacume leak of it was not getting enough fuel. Since i have pretty sure there are no more vacume leaks (at least that would cause this kind of problem) we both turned the the fuel system.

Well he asked if i had replaced the fuel filter, i said yes, he asked what brand? I said fram, he said theres your problem.

He said he has seen fram fuel filters cause problems like this before and that i should get a toyota filter.

He also suggested i get my injectors/top-end cleaned, i have that planned for wendsday.

So i went to the dealer and got me a $35 toyota fuel filter. Installed that and started it up a few mins ago. Guess what?!?!

My AFR's dropped like a rock!! It was pretty much right where it should be but i could tell it was tying to re-tune its self. So i am resetting the ECU as we speak so that I can see exactly how much it helped.

But it DID help, maybe fixed it. Wouldn't that be funny if this whoel time and all my problems were caused by a fram fuel filter??!?!

You know what, i am just glad to know it was not me that was causing these problems/not able to figure it out. Gadget said that the first time he saw this a whole group of pro tuners had my same problems and they could not figure it out so i should not feel bad.

So this combined with the injector/top-end cleaning (which gadget also highly recomends) should hopfully get me up and running right!

I am going ot let the truck sit for an hour or so to make sure the ECU is fully reset then see how it does and report back.

So lessond learned: DO NOT USE FRAM ANYTHING! JUST STAY AWAY FROM FRAM! PARTICUALRLY FUEL FILTERS!

Speedy

Hmm, I assumed you used a Toyota fuel filter. Good news that seems to have helped you.

Ok, if I were in your shoes here a check list I'd go down to solve the problem:

1. Clean the MAF Sensor in the intake REALLY good.
2. New Fuel Filter
3. Make sure I had the proper spark plugs (2 steps cooler NGK Iridium)
4. Make sure there were NO vacuum leaks
5. Make sure my AFR gauge was accurate - i.e. pull it out and leave it in CLEAN air to see what AFR it reads....should be 22.X or so as that's what my Innovate LC-1 shows.


To answer some of your questions:

I'm at 800 feet above sea level where I live which s pretty much considered sea level. My 2.2" pully shows 9.5 MAX PSI in my RC4 tuning software and on my boost gauge.

Dirty injectors could also cause your problem.

Finally, although you've had a trying time with all this, don't give up.

Texas_Ace

Funny you should mention the intake, that was something else that gadget said could be my problem.

Any kind of intake that has smaller or larger piping can cause the MAF to read wrong. I am pretty sure mine is the stock size but i am going to switch back to the stock intake to see if that helps anything. He said if it is larger it can cause the same problems as i am having as well.

Now i want to know why i am only seeing 7.5psi with my 2.2 pulley. I was seeing 6 - 6.5 with the stock pulley, why would it hardly go up at all? Just don't make sense.

Gonna go back out and start it up right now, will see how much better it is now....

Texas_Ace

Ok, so i started it up and messed with it some more.

Changing the fuel filter DID help. Instead of avarging around 15.5 AFR it is now down to about 15.0-1 AFR at idle. Now when driving it drops down intot he 14's but it is still hunting around a lot so it is hard to tell what the true readings are.

So i changed my intake back to stock and though it didn't seem to change anything i think i am going ot leave it. It is quiter and since i want the truck to look/sound stock on the outside i might as well leave it.

With it being quiter i was able to listen for vacume leaks better and once again came up empty handed.

I check the fuel trims and they are MUCH better. Used to be the long term was 20%+ all the tiem with spikes up to 30%+. Now it pretty much sits at 6% except for a few times when driving. So that is good.

I guess i can hope that getting my injectors cleaned will fix the rest of my problems. I guess it is possible that my injectors really are THAT dirty.

Does anyone know what the fuel pressure is supposed to be? When they clean the injectors i am sure they will be able to check it.

At least i am making progress i guess.

On a side note while i had the computer hooked up a took out 15% fuel from the piggy back maps and my AFR's are still rich (aka, it is getting a lot more fuel then before the fuel filter was changed) but i do have it int he low 11:1. amazing the power differnce with that little change.

I am still running REAL lean compared to speedys maps and ian's. i still have to add fuel from 0psi on up, just less then before. i just can't figure out why, i mean if it was just a little differnce i could understand but i am needing almost 10X the fuel that speedys maps call for under boost and i am not even bosting as high!

So i guess i am stuck until i get the injectors cleaned. darn i want this to work, i am really starting to like the extra power! i don't know if i could go back to NA now that i have tasted FI.

Speedy

On Gadget's site somewhere he says what stock fuel pressure is - 53 psi comes to mind but don't quite me.

Also, you injectors need to be flow tested by whomever cleans them. You could have a bad one and need to replace it. The flow test will check to make sure they're all in spec.

Texas_Ace

True, but that wuld mean pulling the injectors. Gadget recomended that i have them cleaned while on the truck so as to clean the top end as well.

I was going to pull them and send them out but he said that doing it this way is what he would do.

florider

hurray for t.a. hope you got it licked brother. i wonder how many people hurt their engines by not taking the time to do what you are doing and run lean not knowing anything is wrong. is this common to have to re-tune when installing a sc. i just thought it was plug and play pretty much. anyhow good luck with the rest, ill be watching, ready to pop a tall cold one when you declare victory. f L O

Texas_Ace

Yes, you need to tune the piggy back when you install a SC. if you just install it you will run lean.

Though my problems are a lot more then a normal install due to what i am sure is something small that i will either find and wounder how i never thought of that or will give up and never know.

The only reason i have not given up so far is the fact that it only has problms in vacume which i would figure it would still have the problems if i was NA. So why have to fight the same problems in NA and not have the extra power?

Texas_Ace

Ok, so i just got back from getting the motorvac done (injectors/top-end cleaned).

Good news and bad.

The good news is that my engine is running better for sure! I can hear it run smoother. But the way i 100% know it is running better is that my boost gauge is reading more vacume at idle then it used to. Used to be right at -20hg. now it is reading -21-22hg Which is a noticeable increase in vacume (which is good).

The bad news is that it is still running lean acording to my Wideband. I am once again thinking it might bethe wideband that is the blame vs the car that is to blame for this.

I was talking to the guys doing the motorvac (which i HIGHLY recomend BTW) and they said that it seems to be running fine and they also think it is the wideband.


Although in vacume it is running just as lean if not leaner (once agian pointing towards a vacume leak....that can't be found) at WOT and full boost i is running richer then before.

Alother thing that has me bugged, my boot is now getting up to ~8psi after the treatment vs the ~7psi it was getting before. Whats up with that? I am still quite low though from what it should be.

In vacume driving i can feel a performance increse for sure. but the strange part is that i seem to have LESS power in boost then when i was running the stock pulley?? Whats up with that??

This is really starting to get the best of me....

Texas_Ace

Ok, i think i might have left out a LITTLE BITTY detail that gadget thoguht was important...

I have a small exahust leak at the Wideband O2 sensor. It seems that this can cause the exact same problems i have been having since day one.

So i am going to go by the exahust shop and see if i can get that fixed. Just might fix all my problems.

Speedy

O2 sensors are SENSITIVE. If you have an exhaust leak anywhere around that sensor you'll never get a real reading.