Upgraded Timing Chain Guides
02-18-2005, 10:45 AM
#21
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Originally Posted by myexcaliber2000
what? mine is a jan 84 model and it only has a single chain. so what you are lookin at has to be an upgrade kit. Not arguing jus stating what i know. But as far as the swap it works just fine between all 22r years. the only thing that changes is the chain length.
02-19-2005, 05:01 PM
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ok, so now i am thinking... buy lce's guides, and enginebldrs kit.... thats $140
also want to replace the waterpump (do they make a high performance one?) the oil pump (i beleive engnbldr sells a hipo version, but dont know cost) and the oil pan gasket... how much will i look @ spending on that extra stuff..... then the next thing will be to replace my fuel pump and have the radiator cleaned with the "rodded" method (not because it needs it, well it might, but jsut pice of mind knowing its done)
also want to replace the waterpump (do they make a high performance one?) the oil pump (i beleive engnbldr sells a hipo version, but dont know cost) and the oil pan gasket... how much will i look @ spending on that extra stuff..... then the next thing will be to replace my fuel pump and have the radiator cleaned with the "rodded" method (not because it needs it, well it might, but jsut pice of mind knowing its done)
02-19-2005, 07:56 PM
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I know there are high performance water pumps i have one. They just flow 30% more water than the stock one does. I got mine off of e-bay for $50. So just check around you can find good deals in there. I spent $2000 in performance parts fo rmy 84 that is a little overboard but i like it. It is all in what you wanna use it for. Build for what you are gonna do.
02-22-2005, 05:42 AM
#26
20R-22RE timing set differences
>>>*Interesting thread, I thought I would add some information.
The early 20R and 22R engines through 1982 used a dual roller timing chain assembly. Both guides were steel backed.
Around 1983, Toyota switched to the nylon style guiderails, in a single roller design. The reason was simple, less weight, less drag.
The early engines up to 1984 can easily be converted to the dual row assembly, note both designs were the taller 11.280" block.
In 1985, the switch was to the short deck (11.090") tall block, and the chain was shortened to 96 links from the earlier 98 link design.
I see the discussion continue on the guiderails, metal or plastic.
I will say this: If all is in good shape, the plastic design works just fine. The passenger side guide operates under load, and will groove slightly until the full rollers make contact, then wear almost stops. The driver's side straight guide has just one function, it acts as a gaurd to keep the timing chain from rubbing the timing cover.
Installing that gaurd in steel backed simply offers added protection from breakage in case something goes wrong. If something does go wrong, the assembly will need to be replaced anyway, steel isn't going to help much more than offer time before everything goes poo...
As far as breakage, if allowed to run loose, (tensioner arm stuck, chain too loose from over-surfacing the head/block, etc) the steel gaurd can be broken, too! *Just takes longer, and makes a racket, warns the driver.
Without fail, in upset conditions, the driver's side guide breaks first. The passenger side can also break, but this happens after the driver's side goes.
Logic says the operator would have stopped before then, wondering what that $$$$$ noise is.......*EB
The early 20R and 22R engines through 1982 used a dual roller timing chain assembly. Both guides were steel backed.
Around 1983, Toyota switched to the nylon style guiderails, in a single roller design. The reason was simple, less weight, less drag.
The early engines up to 1984 can easily be converted to the dual row assembly, note both designs were the taller 11.280" block.
In 1985, the switch was to the short deck (11.090") tall block, and the chain was shortened to 96 links from the earlier 98 link design.
I see the discussion continue on the guiderails, metal or plastic.
I will say this: If all is in good shape, the plastic design works just fine. The passenger side guide operates under load, and will groove slightly until the full rollers make contact, then wear almost stops. The driver's side straight guide has just one function, it acts as a gaurd to keep the timing chain from rubbing the timing cover.
Installing that gaurd in steel backed simply offers added protection from breakage in case something goes wrong. If something does go wrong, the assembly will need to be replaced anyway, steel isn't going to help much more than offer time before everything goes poo...
As far as breakage, if allowed to run loose, (tensioner arm stuck, chain too loose from over-surfacing the head/block, etc) the steel gaurd can be broken, too! *Just takes longer, and makes a racket, warns the driver.
Without fail, in upset conditions, the driver's side guide breaks first. The passenger side can also break, but this happens after the driver's side goes.
Logic says the operator would have stopped before then, wondering what that $$$$$ noise is.......*EB
02-22-2005, 04:47 PM
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would it be easy for me to convert to the dual row and jsut take out some links? or is the cover a differnt size or what exactly would be involved... i must keep whatever i do as cheap as possible
02-22-2005, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jimabena74
would it be easy for me to convert to the dual row and jsut take out some links? or is the cover a differnt size or what exactly would be involved... i must keep whatever i do as cheap as possible
02-22-2005, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Glenn
You would need a new timing cover to convert from single row to double row.
and this would be the stock cover from a say 1982? engine?
02-23-2005, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by kyle_22r
i haven't heard of the driver side guide breaking, however on my early engine it's steel as well.
look at the design though. the driver's side guide always has tension on it, the passenger side one has slack which slaps against the guide. also, the passenger side one is curved with less support from the nearest bolt(its a few inches below) which would make it more prone to breaking than the driver's guide, which is straight and has the bolt closer to the top.
look at the design though. the driver's side guide always has tension on it, the passenger side one has slack which slaps against the guide. also, the passenger side one is curved with less support from the nearest bolt(its a few inches below) which would make it more prone to breaking than the driver's guide, which is straight and has the bolt closer to the top.
My driver side guide broke first. The passenger side was in much better shape than the driver side.
I had the engnbldr stuff in my old toy, good quality stuff and it didnt break the bank.
02-23-2005, 04:41 PM
#33
Originally Posted by jimabena74
hmmmmmm... some food for thought.... maybe he heard about me contacting differnt companies 
well, duh, i did tell him i found him through the site
well, duh, i did tell him i found him through the site I am just an amateur at all this, I retired 5 years ago after 42 years of building engines, so I happen to know I am very good at breaking stuff...
You really should go ahead and get both guiderails steel backed, I always said if you want something a certain way, then it should be that way. Besides, I don't care if someone else sells something, I can't wrap stuff any faster than I am already.
Please feel free to email and ask anything any time, I can usually answer in a few minutes and I like to try and help. *Part of my job, I am having fun with all of this. Or post, I wander in every day or so, this is getting to be a good site.
Now some more: If you choose to convert to the dual roller assembly, the REAL advantage there is simply more surface area as the rollers make contact. This does reduce wear, that adds durability. As far as the single VS dual roller chains strengthwise, there is NO difference, we proved that in stress load tests. They are almost exactly identical, which is logical, of course. Note that the conversion requires the early thicker timing cover, which must be machined down to fit the shorter deck late block. The bad part is the added weight and drag will take about 5-8 horsepower, we also proved that on the dyno.
Now some folks talk of "stretched" timing chains. That doesn't really happen, they wear. They wear inside where the roller trunion runs, they wear outside where the roller rides on the gear teeth, and they wear at the teeth. Normally that wear is minimal, but load the assembly (stuck tensioner, etc) and wear is very rapid.
Now some folks say that my chains are longer than the stock ones...They aren't, they have slightly larger rollers, note they are one piece and NOT split, and the pins are solid, swedged at an angle in two places instead of center swedged which flares the pin and increases wear rate..
Now if the rollers are larger/smaller, this means we cannot compare one chain next to another visually. They must be set on the gears, loaded, and center to center distance measured.
Other folks say I sell DJ Rock kits. *Interesting they think that unless they are buying them... I do supply some, but I know the F/M pieces come mostly from the same factory, can't fool me on that one, I have stood in the factory and watched the nice chubby ladies switch boxes. No matter, I DO supply DJ Rock kits as the OEM sets, we get them with the kit orders. Good stuff, I just happen to like the Tsubakimoto tensioner better, it is harder for the installer to smash one torquing it down....Those gears are Asian made, not a thing wrong with them, I simply happen to have a purchase agreement with a company that manufactures the Melling pieces, and it saves me money.
We pack our own EPN H/D kits inhouse, with OEM tensioner, Morse chain, and good old American made gears, usually even the BOX is American made. I have the steel guide made for me, they ship me 100 at a whack. The passenger side is Nylon and works just fine as long as nothing else goes wrong.
If it does, all the steel backed guides and dual roller chains in the world won't help, you will get to go back in there and fix it. Silicone, dirt, grit, overtorqued tensioner...? Yep...early failure..The tensioner is the weak link and MUST be spotless.
Just my opinions, for the dab it is worth. There really isn't a mystery or need for one, the reasons why we supply the way we do should be obvious. If we were to have the passenger side guide produced new, it would cost an average of $7.00 per kit additional, and there really is no benefit other than perception...*Sometimes perception is worth the price, I concede...
*NEAT thread, I am enjoying all of the opinions....Thanks!.....*EB
02-24-2005, 10:02 PM
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from something someone else said, not sure if it was discussed already or not, but i know in 85 they became differnt, but some 84s? had the matal guides? both of them? is there any reason the 84 metal guide single chain couldnt be used on the 85 design? or am i jsut blantantly wrong somewhere?
02-24-2005, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by engnbldr
>>>* *LOL**...Yep, I heard you were comparing items, that is the way to do it. If you don't ask, you don't learn. Often the response will tell you something about the supplier.
I am just an amateur at all this, I retired 5 years ago after 42 years of building engines, so I happen to know I am very good at breaking stuff...
You really should go ahead and get both guiderails steel backed, I always said if you want something a certain way, then it should be that way. Besides, I don't care if someone else sells something, I can't wrap stuff any faster than I am already.
Please feel free to email and ask anything any time, I can usually answer in a few minutes and I like to try and help. *Part of my job, I am having fun with all of this. Or post, I wander in every day or so, this is getting to be a good site.
Now some more: If you choose to convert to the dual roller assembly, the REAL advantage there is simply more surface area as the rollers make contact. This does reduce wear, that adds durability. As far as the single VS dual roller chains strengthwise, there is NO difference, we proved that in stress load tests. They are almost exactly identical, which is logical, of course. Note that the conversion requires the early thicker timing cover, which must be machined down to fit the shorter deck late block. The bad part is the added weight and drag will take about 5-8 horsepower, we also proved that on the dyno.
Now some folks talk of "stretched" timing chains. That doesn't really happen, they wear. They wear inside where the roller trunion runs, they wear outside where the roller rides on the gear teeth, and they wear at the teeth. Normally that wear is minimal, but load the assembly (stuck tensioner, etc) and wear is very rapid.
Now some folks say that my chains are longer than the stock ones...They aren't, they have slightly larger rollers, note they are one piece and NOT split, and the pins are solid, swedged at an angle in two places instead of center swedged which flares the pin and increases wear rate..
Now if the rollers are larger/smaller, this means we cannot compare one chain next to another visually. They must be set on the gears, loaded, and center to center distance measured.
Other folks say I sell DJ Rock kits. *Interesting they think that unless they are buying them... I do supply some, but I know the F/M pieces come mostly from the same factory, can't fool me on that one, I have stood in the factory and watched the nice chubby ladies switch boxes. No matter, I DO supply DJ Rock kits as the OEM sets, we get them with the kit orders. Good stuff, I just happen to like the Tsubakimoto tensioner better, it is harder for the installer to smash one torquing it down....Those gears are Asian made, not a thing wrong with them, I simply happen to have a purchase agreement with a company that manufactures the Melling pieces, and it saves me money.
We pack our own EPN H/D kits inhouse, with OEM tensioner, Morse chain, and good old American made gears, usually even the BOX is American made. I have the steel guide made for me, they ship me 100 at a whack. The passenger side is Nylon and works just fine as long as nothing else goes wrong.
If it does, all the steel backed guides and dual roller chains in the world won't help, you will get to go back in there and fix it. Silicone, dirt, grit, overtorqued tensioner...? Yep...early failure..The tensioner is the weak link and MUST be spotless.
Just my opinions, for the dab it is worth. There really isn't a mystery or need for one, the reasons why we supply the way we do should be obvious. If we were to have the passenger side guide produced new, it would cost an average of $7.00 per kit additional, and there really is no benefit other than perception...*Sometimes perception is worth the price, I concede...
*NEAT thread, I am enjoying all of the opinions....Thanks!.....*EB
I am just an amateur at all this, I retired 5 years ago after 42 years of building engines, so I happen to know I am very good at breaking stuff...
You really should go ahead and get both guiderails steel backed, I always said if you want something a certain way, then it should be that way. Besides, I don't care if someone else sells something, I can't wrap stuff any faster than I am already.
Please feel free to email and ask anything any time, I can usually answer in a few minutes and I like to try and help. *Part of my job, I am having fun with all of this. Or post, I wander in every day or so, this is getting to be a good site.
Now some more: If you choose to convert to the dual roller assembly, the REAL advantage there is simply more surface area as the rollers make contact. This does reduce wear, that adds durability. As far as the single VS dual roller chains strengthwise, there is NO difference, we proved that in stress load tests. They are almost exactly identical, which is logical, of course. Note that the conversion requires the early thicker timing cover, which must be machined down to fit the shorter deck late block. The bad part is the added weight and drag will take about 5-8 horsepower, we also proved that on the dyno.
Now some folks talk of "stretched" timing chains. That doesn't really happen, they wear. They wear inside where the roller trunion runs, they wear outside where the roller rides on the gear teeth, and they wear at the teeth. Normally that wear is minimal, but load the assembly (stuck tensioner, etc) and wear is very rapid.
Now some folks say that my chains are longer than the stock ones...They aren't, they have slightly larger rollers, note they are one piece and NOT split, and the pins are solid, swedged at an angle in two places instead of center swedged which flares the pin and increases wear rate..
Now if the rollers are larger/smaller, this means we cannot compare one chain next to another visually. They must be set on the gears, loaded, and center to center distance measured.
Other folks say I sell DJ Rock kits. *Interesting they think that unless they are buying them... I do supply some, but I know the F/M pieces come mostly from the same factory, can't fool me on that one, I have stood in the factory and watched the nice chubby ladies switch boxes. No matter, I DO supply DJ Rock kits as the OEM sets, we get them with the kit orders. Good stuff, I just happen to like the Tsubakimoto tensioner better, it is harder for the installer to smash one torquing it down....Those gears are Asian made, not a thing wrong with them, I simply happen to have a purchase agreement with a company that manufactures the Melling pieces, and it saves me money.
We pack our own EPN H/D kits inhouse, with OEM tensioner, Morse chain, and good old American made gears, usually even the BOX is American made. I have the steel guide made for me, they ship me 100 at a whack. The passenger side is Nylon and works just fine as long as nothing else goes wrong.
If it does, all the steel backed guides and dual roller chains in the world won't help, you will get to go back in there and fix it. Silicone, dirt, grit, overtorqued tensioner...? Yep...early failure..The tensioner is the weak link and MUST be spotless.
Just my opinions, for the dab it is worth. There really isn't a mystery or need for one, the reasons why we supply the way we do should be obvious. If we were to have the passenger side guide produced new, it would cost an average of $7.00 per kit additional, and there really is no benefit other than perception...*Sometimes perception is worth the price, I concede...
*NEAT thread, I am enjoying all of the opinions....Thanks!.....*EB
any plans to make them?
02-25-2005, 07:20 AM
#36
>>>*Morning! Sore toe here so I am crabby...*had a nail removed...
Anyways, on the first question, none of the 2nd design had steel backed guides (83-84). They were all nylon with the single row in those years. Yes, the later steel guide can be used for the straight side, it is a bit shorter. One company actually does provide them that way. I looked and saw a chance that the chain could catch if the head/block have been surfaced and the chain is slack. Too much risk so I don't provide the short rail for the tall engine block except in Nylon.
Of course the earlier dual row assembly can be converted.
Yes, we looked into producing the passenger side guiderail in steel backed. Bit of a different thing there than the driver's side. Realize the driver's side guide simply is a gaurd, in operation it is not designed to actually touch, just briefly at startup sometimes.
The passenger side runs under constant load as the chain rides up and over it. So an engineering report is required, bunch of tests.. Yes, that could all be done but the initial cost gets deep into this old man's jeans.
I tried to get several major companies to supply due to that "perception" again, I say there is a good market.
They say it is an obsolete engine and a fading market....way it is in my world...*EB
Anyways, on the first question, none of the 2nd design had steel backed guides (83-84). They were all nylon with the single row in those years. Yes, the later steel guide can be used for the straight side, it is a bit shorter. One company actually does provide them that way. I looked and saw a chance that the chain could catch if the head/block have been surfaced and the chain is slack. Too much risk so I don't provide the short rail for the tall engine block except in Nylon.
Of course the earlier dual row assembly can be converted.
Yes, we looked into producing the passenger side guiderail in steel backed. Bit of a different thing there than the driver's side. Realize the driver's side guide simply is a gaurd, in operation it is not designed to actually touch, just briefly at startup sometimes.
The passenger side runs under constant load as the chain rides up and over it. So an engineering report is required, bunch of tests.. Yes, that could all be done but the initial cost gets deep into this old man's jeans.
I tried to get several major companies to supply due to that "perception" again, I say there is a good market.
They say it is an obsolete engine and a fading market....way it is in my world...*EB
02-25-2005, 10:56 AM
#37
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does that mean lce and doa have done those tests? and thats essentially why there 2 guides alone are $80?
what i will end up doing then is probably getting your kit and also getting lce's guides, then jsut having a left over.... i might be able to sell just the drivers side one on ebay or somewhere
what i will end up doing then is probably getting your kit and also getting lce's guides, then jsut having a left over.... i might be able to sell just the drivers side one on ebay or somewhere
02-26-2005, 09:42 AM
#38
Originally Posted by jimabena74
does that mean lce and doa have done those tests? and thats essentially why there 2 guides alone are $80?
what i will end up doing then is probably getting your kit and also getting lce's guides, then jsut having a left over.... i might be able to sell just the drivers side one on ebay or somewhere
what i will end up doing then is probably getting your kit and also getting lce's guides, then jsut having a left over.... i might be able to sell just the drivers side one on ebay or somewhere
I am an old racer, I hate being behind anything...
I have spoken several times with folks from LCE, a couple of times I was asking them questions and a couple of times they were asking me questions. Good folks, willing with info and I was happy to return the favor.
Tim @ DOA and i have had a few emails back and forth, he is young and bright. Magic hands with porting, i know, I have had his work in my hands. We don't agree on some things, but then my WIFE and i don't agree on some things...*LOL**...
Neat to have two different approaches to the same ideas, keeps the world moving...*EB
07-18-2005, 09:40 AM
#39
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OK so here is a little update... It appears the LCE and DOA's guides are the same... well I think, that is my perception... i sent the same email to them asking them about theirs and the other guy...
TO LCE:
> Hi, I have been doing some research through the online community known as
> Yotatech, and have found information on your metal backed timing chain
> guides. I see they are the same price and appear to be the same or close to
> the same product as a kit offered by DOA Racing Engines. It appears that
> their kit has a lifetime warranty regarding breakage, do you have anything
> like this? Is there a difference in the 2? I am still not sure whos guides I
> am going to buy, but I should be buying within the week.
LCE REPLY:
The metal back guides that DOA carries buys them from a supplier that gets them from us. Ours are lifetime gurranteed against breakage.
Craig Bolton
Sales Department
LC Engineering, Inc.
928-505-2501
www.lcengineering.com
I sent DOA pretty much the same email but asked about LCE's Stuff, here is what Tim replied:
Metal backed guides are my invention, I came out with them in 83. Can't really speak for LC's kit, being as I don't buy LC product.
Tim Jenkins
D.O.A. Racing Engines
128 Milbros Ln.
Mooresville, NC. 28117
704 799 6261
doaracingengines.com
TO LCE:
> Hi, I have been doing some research through the online community known as
> Yotatech, and have found information on your metal backed timing chain
> guides. I see they are the same price and appear to be the same or close to
> the same product as a kit offered by DOA Racing Engines. It appears that
> their kit has a lifetime warranty regarding breakage, do you have anything
> like this? Is there a difference in the 2? I am still not sure whos guides I
> am going to buy, but I should be buying within the week.
LCE REPLY:
The metal back guides that DOA carries buys them from a supplier that gets them from us. Ours are lifetime gurranteed against breakage.
Craig Bolton
Sales Department
LC Engineering, Inc.
928-505-2501
www.lcengineering.com
I sent DOA pretty much the same email but asked about LCE's Stuff, here is what Tim replied:
Metal backed guides are my invention, I came out with them in 83. Can't really speak for LC's kit, being as I don't buy LC product.
Tim Jenkins
D.O.A. Racing Engines
128 Milbros Ln.
Mooresville, NC. 28117
704 799 6261
doaracingengines.com
