Toyota Access Pricing
10-31-2004 | 11:39 AM
#1
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From: Vancouver, BC
Toyota Access Pricing in CANADA
I have a question for you guys concerning the pricing of Toyotas, particularly in Canada. Toyota Canada has a one price policy where all of its dealers have to sell their new vehicles for the same price. Its suppose to protect the buyer from dealers ripping you off and save you time from shopping around. However toyota now lists these vehicles at MSRP. Its seems very difficult if not impossible to get the dealers to move on the price. Who pays the asking price? I find it very hard to pay MSRP for a vehicle regardless of the model.
Is this against the law? I remember seeing an article in the Vancouver Sun saying that Toyota acknowledged this issue, but I have heard nothing since then as to enforcement. What have you CDN guys done to reduce the price from MSRP?
I'm looking at 2005 4runner or a 20005 Tacoma. If I can't get a decent price, I'm afraid I might have to got to a Pathfinder just because of this.
Is this against the law? I remember seeing an article in the Vancouver Sun saying that Toyota acknowledged this issue, but I have heard nothing since then as to enforcement. What have you CDN guys done to reduce the price from MSRP?
I'm looking at 2005 4runner or a 20005 Tacoma. If I can't get a decent price, I'm afraid I might have to got to a Pathfinder just because of this.
Last edited by Grimace; 11-02-2004 at 08:37 AM.
10-31-2004 | 02:31 PM
#2
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From: Slave Lake, Alberta Canada
It doesn't look like any dealers will move on the price since they'va pretty much all agreed to stick to the access pricing formula. Toyota has put a lot of resources into this program so I can't see it changing any time soon.
As for it breaking any laws, I can't see how it would. Governments can't regulate pricing in the open markets. Its only in heavily regulated monopolies that they have any real powers. If that wasn't the case, then the capital market system would be in jeopardy.
My old man just bought a 04 dub cab Tundra ltd. He couldn't stand the idea of paying MSRP but none of the 4 dealers he went to would move on the price. We went to the dealers ready to pay cash and walk out that day with a truck but no dealer would move on the access price (which is actually set a measly few bucks under MSRP) so he bit the bullet and paid the access price.
As for it breaking any laws, I can't see how it would. Governments can't regulate pricing in the open markets. Its only in heavily regulated monopolies that they have any real powers. If that wasn't the case, then the capital market system would be in jeopardy.
My old man just bought a 04 dub cab Tundra ltd. He couldn't stand the idea of paying MSRP but none of the 4 dealers he went to would move on the price. We went to the dealers ready to pay cash and walk out that day with a truck but no dealer would move on the access price (which is actually set a measly few bucks under MSRP) so he bit the bullet and paid the access price.
11-01-2004 | 08:31 AM
#3
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From: Vancouver, BC
Here's a little snippet from an article I read in June:
Toyota kills no-haggle sales price strategy
Source: http://www.globemegawheels.com/servl...TOYOTA17/cars/
By GREG KEENAN
AUTO INDUSTRY REPORTER
Thursday, June 17, 2004 - Page B1
Toyota Canada Inc. is abandoning the no-haggle price strategy that was a key feature of its Access Toyota sales system, a radical overhaul of the way the company sells vehicles that is being closely watched by its rivals, but is also the subject of lawsuits in Quebec and British Columbia.
Toyota kills no-haggle sales price strategy
Source: http://www.globemegawheels.com/servl...TOYOTA17/cars/
By GREG KEENAN
AUTO INDUSTRY REPORTER
Thursday, June 17, 2004 - Page B1
Toyota Canada Inc. is abandoning the no-haggle price strategy that was a key feature of its Access Toyota sales system, a radical overhaul of the way the company sells vehicles that is being closely watched by its rivals, but is also the subject of lawsuits in Quebec and British Columbia.
11-01-2004 | 08:36 AM
#4
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From: Vancouver, BC
I think there is some sorta of illegal act going on under the Access Toyota program. When I purchased my Matrix last year, I found out, from a Vancouver dealership, that their dealership would get punished if they didn't follow the pricing.
On another note:
After reading about the end of Access Toyota, I tried seeing what CarCostCanada had to say about Toyota dealer's invoice pricing and the Access Toyota program. This is what they said.
"Comment by Armada Data Corp C/S team:Richard, even though Access Pricing is technically no longer in effect, Toyota dealers are in a transition period at this time. We are unfortunately not able to obtain a discount on Toyota vehicles at present. Please let us know if there is another make that you are interested in. Regards - Carcostcanada.com C/S Team 1"
On another note:
After reading about the end of Access Toyota, I tried seeing what CarCostCanada had to say about Toyota dealer's invoice pricing and the Access Toyota program. This is what they said.
"Comment by Armada Data Corp C/S team:Richard, even though Access Pricing is technically no longer in effect, Toyota dealers are in a transition period at this time. We are unfortunately not able to obtain a discount on Toyota vehicles at present. Please let us know if there is another make that you are interested in. Regards - Carcostcanada.com C/S Team 1"
11-01-2004 | 08:57 AM
#5
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From: Calgary
Just stay out of Downtown Toyota on Burrard. That place is king of the rip offs in my experience. The dealership on Lougheed in Burnaby just past Boundary is way better in my experience.
Last edited by Babypig; 11-01-2004 at 08:58 AM.
11-01-2004 | 10:30 AM
#7
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From: Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted by Babypig
Just stay out of Downtown Toyota on Burrard. That place is king of the rip offs in my experience. The dealership on Lougheed in Burnaby just past Boundary is way better in my experience.
As well I confirm your experience with Downtown Toyota. They are the worst guys to deal with.
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11-01-2004 | 11:18 AM
#8
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OK, here's my story.
I just got off the phone with Toyota Canada. I spoke to guy named Justin in customer service. I told him about the articles in the Globe & Mail and the Vancouver Sun. He put me on hold to speak to someone more knowledgeable about the issue. Ten minutes later, he then told me that Toyota's response to the articles was they changed their one price policy (called the drive away rpice) to MSRP. Toyota now lists MSRP to better compare their vehicles to their competitors So I asked him what the difference was between MSRP and the Access price and who in their right mind would pay MSRP. As well, I told him about the dealers stating they would be penalized if they would sold below MSRP. All I got was silence. He was so dumbfounded!!!!!!!!!! He again went to his supervisor.
5 minutes later, I told him what they doing maybe illegal and that the BBB should investigate the issue. I like to create trouble sometimes. So now Toyota of Canada's review team is going to call me to discuss the issue. Whats a review team? I really don't know what I have gotten myself into. It should be fun though. Any ideas? What should I say?
As well, its interesting to note they didn't take me seriously until they did a search of all the vehicles my family has purchased from toyota in the past 10 years before the new pricing system. He wanted to know if I was serious or not.
I just got off the phone with Toyota Canada. I spoke to guy named Justin in customer service. I told him about the articles in the Globe & Mail and the Vancouver Sun. He put me on hold to speak to someone more knowledgeable about the issue. Ten minutes later, he then told me that Toyota's response to the articles was they changed their one price policy (called the drive away rpice) to MSRP. Toyota now lists MSRP to better compare their vehicles to their competitors So I asked him what the difference was between MSRP and the Access price and who in their right mind would pay MSRP. As well, I told him about the dealers stating they would be penalized if they would sold below MSRP. All I got was silence. He was so dumbfounded!!!!!!!!!! He again went to his supervisor.
5 minutes later, I told him what they doing maybe illegal and that the BBB should investigate the issue. I like to create trouble sometimes. So now Toyota of Canada's review team is going to call me to discuss the issue. Whats a review team? I really don't know what I have gotten myself into. It should be fun though. Any ideas? What should I say?
As well, its interesting to note they didn't take me seriously until they did a search of all the vehicles my family has purchased from toyota in the past 10 years before the new pricing system. He wanted to know if I was serious or not.
11-01-2004 | 11:37 AM
#9
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From: New Jersey
Sounds like their "review team" is going to put you into the proverbial run around. Those guys will probably call you and tell you to call up the customer service, or keep sending you to different departments.
You might be able to get a corporate override on the pricing - but I don't see that as likely.
Have you tried contacting any dealerships near the US? You might be able to get the car shipped to you for $500 or so - which could be worth it if the price is a few thousand less.
Just a thought (or look for some ads from the US and try to get them to price match it in canada - and if they won't - claim discrimination)
You might be able to get a corporate override on the pricing - but I don't see that as likely.
Have you tried contacting any dealerships near the US? You might be able to get the car shipped to you for $500 or so - which could be worth it if the price is a few thousand less.
Just a thought (or look for some ads from the US and try to get them to price match it in canada - and if they won't - claim discrimination)
11-01-2004 | 11:46 AM
#10
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From: Vancouver, BC
I didn't call Toyota Canada, but I have filed a complaint to the Competition Bureau of Canada, asking them to explain how Toyota Canada is not in violation of the Competition Act.
If we could get enough public support out of this, then maybe something can be done to change this.
If we could get enough public support out of this, then maybe something can be done to change this.
11-02-2004 | 08:30 AM
#13
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From: Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted by Masato
Hmmm... I wonder if I smell a class action suit brewing somewhere....
Here's the link to Competition Bureau of Canada
This is why we pay the taxes, but we do not need to pay useless amounts of money to the stealers.
Last edited by Grimace; 11-02-2004 at 08:35 AM.
11-02-2004 | 08:48 AM
#14
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From: Vancouver, BC
Here's the report from the Globe and Mail. Maybe we should buy our trucks in Ontario?
Toyota kills no-haggle sales price strategy
By GREG KEENAN
Thursday, June 17, 2004 Page - B1 (860 words)
AUTO INDUSTRY REPORTER Print this Article
Toyota Canada Inc. is abandoning the no-haggle price strategy that was a key feature of its Access Toyota sales system, a radical overhaul of the way the company sells vehicles that is being closely watched by its rivals, but is also the subject of lawsuits in Quebec and British Columbia.
The move to eliminate one-price selling for new cars, trucks, minivans and sport utility vehicles comes about one month before Access Toyota is scheduled to be introduced in Ontario. The country's biggest new vehicle market is scheduled to be the last region of the country to adopt the program, which one industry source described as a "revolutionary" change in the traditional method of buying a new vehicle.
In addition to one-price selling, the program involves training sales people to make them more customer-friendly, changing the sales process to reduce the time spent in a dealership and use of the Internet, to buy instead of entering an outlet.
The program has been in place since 2000, when it was started in Manitoba before a national rollout to the company's 230 dealers.
"Obviously this is the end of the program as the pricing was the key segment," said one dealer.
Dealers said they were notified of the change in a memorandum from Toyota Canada president Kenji Tomikawa last Friday.
Company officials would not talk about the decision yesterday or reasons for the move.
"We don't have anything to discuss at this time," said spokesman David Stone. Announcements to dealers are "privileged communications which we don't normally talk about."
One dealer suggested that the Canadian sales arm of Toyota Motor Corp. was told to change the program because dealers have become considerably less aggressive in the market, and reduced advertising, for example.
A Quebec lawsuit challenging the pricing practices has not yet been certified as a class-action suit but is proceeding, said Daniel Belleau, a Montreal lawyer who is handling the case.
Court documents filed in the B.C. lawsuit said dealers set prices unlawfully, refused to offer discounts from the Access price and would not offer free options or extra features.
The allegations have not been proven in court and the suit has also not yet been certified as a class-action, lawyer Leslie Mackoff said yesterday.
Access Toyota was a key part of the company's Vision 2010 program, a successful attempt to grab 10 per cent of the Canadian market by 2000. Toyota Canada now has about 12 per cent of the Canadian vehicle market.
But it was also controversial with the federal government. An investigation by the Competition Bureau examined allegations that the monthly setting of prices by dealers in a particular region amounted to price-fixing.
As part of a settlement of that probe last year, Toyota Canada agreed to make it clear to dealers and sales people that they could sell vehicles for less than the Access Toyota price.
In addition, the auto maker agreed to donate $2.3-million to charities as part of the settlement.
The Access program involved more than just one-price selling, although one dealer described that feature as the backbone of the program.
The changes to the traditional cat-and-mouse negotiations that many buyers despise included:
guarantees on interest rates for 30 days so customers purchasing near the end of one month were still eligible for low-interest finance rates even if the programs had expired by the time they picked up their vehicles;
standard charges across the country for the predelivery inspection that dealers perform before customers drive away;
full disclosure of all charges.
The move to end one-price selling is "a huge victory for the consumer," said Paul Timoteo, president of CarCost Canada, a consumer advocacy firm for car buyers that charges a fee for members and helps them get discounts on vehicles.
A CarCost comparison of prices in British Columbia and Ontario, done last month, found transaction prices for Toyota vehicles were in some cases just a few dollars less than the Manufacturers' Suggested Retail Price, compared with prices substantially lower in Ontario.
The biggest discount in British Columbia was on the 2004 Sequoia, an SUV that carries an MSRP of $63,620.
The Sequoia was fetching $63,171 at B.C. dealers, while CarCost members could pay $57,881 in Ontario, a $5,290 difference.
In Manitoba, dealers were asking $63,234, according to the Access Toyota website.
On the 2005 compact Corolla sport model, CarCost members in Ontario could pay $18,528, compared with the set price of $19,954 in British Columbia.
The Automobile Protection Association reached a similar conclusion by examining prices in Montreal, said George Iny, president of that consumer group.
Mr. Iny praised the other elements of the program, such as increased training for sales people and full disclosure of all charges.
"Hopefully they'll be able to keep those," Mr. Iny said.
Dealers in regions where the program has been in place for some time disputed the notion that consumers weren't getting a fair deal.
"The whole process is seamless and so much better for the consumer," said one.
Toyota kills no-haggle sales price strategy
By GREG KEENAN
Thursday, June 17, 2004 Page - B1 (860 words)
AUTO INDUSTRY REPORTER Print this Article
Toyota Canada Inc. is abandoning the no-haggle price strategy that was a key feature of its Access Toyota sales system, a radical overhaul of the way the company sells vehicles that is being closely watched by its rivals, but is also the subject of lawsuits in Quebec and British Columbia.
The move to eliminate one-price selling for new cars, trucks, minivans and sport utility vehicles comes about one month before Access Toyota is scheduled to be introduced in Ontario. The country's biggest new vehicle market is scheduled to be the last region of the country to adopt the program, which one industry source described as a "revolutionary" change in the traditional method of buying a new vehicle.
In addition to one-price selling, the program involves training sales people to make them more customer-friendly, changing the sales process to reduce the time spent in a dealership and use of the Internet, to buy instead of entering an outlet.
The program has been in place since 2000, when it was started in Manitoba before a national rollout to the company's 230 dealers.
"Obviously this is the end of the program as the pricing was the key segment," said one dealer.
Dealers said they were notified of the change in a memorandum from Toyota Canada president Kenji Tomikawa last Friday.
Company officials would not talk about the decision yesterday or reasons for the move.
"We don't have anything to discuss at this time," said spokesman David Stone. Announcements to dealers are "privileged communications which we don't normally talk about."
One dealer suggested that the Canadian sales arm of Toyota Motor Corp. was told to change the program because dealers have become considerably less aggressive in the market, and reduced advertising, for example.
A Quebec lawsuit challenging the pricing practices has not yet been certified as a class-action suit but is proceeding, said Daniel Belleau, a Montreal lawyer who is handling the case.
Court documents filed in the B.C. lawsuit said dealers set prices unlawfully, refused to offer discounts from the Access price and would not offer free options or extra features.
The allegations have not been proven in court and the suit has also not yet been certified as a class-action, lawyer Leslie Mackoff said yesterday.
Access Toyota was a key part of the company's Vision 2010 program, a successful attempt to grab 10 per cent of the Canadian market by 2000. Toyota Canada now has about 12 per cent of the Canadian vehicle market.
But it was also controversial with the federal government. An investigation by the Competition Bureau examined allegations that the monthly setting of prices by dealers in a particular region amounted to price-fixing.
As part of a settlement of that probe last year, Toyota Canada agreed to make it clear to dealers and sales people that they could sell vehicles for less than the Access Toyota price.
In addition, the auto maker agreed to donate $2.3-million to charities as part of the settlement.
The Access program involved more than just one-price selling, although one dealer described that feature as the backbone of the program.
The changes to the traditional cat-and-mouse negotiations that many buyers despise included:
guarantees on interest rates for 30 days so customers purchasing near the end of one month were still eligible for low-interest finance rates even if the programs had expired by the time they picked up their vehicles;
standard charges across the country for the predelivery inspection that dealers perform before customers drive away;
full disclosure of all charges.
The move to end one-price selling is "a huge victory for the consumer," said Paul Timoteo, president of CarCost Canada, a consumer advocacy firm for car buyers that charges a fee for members and helps them get discounts on vehicles.
A CarCost comparison of prices in British Columbia and Ontario, done last month, found transaction prices for Toyota vehicles were in some cases just a few dollars less than the Manufacturers' Suggested Retail Price, compared with prices substantially lower in Ontario.
The biggest discount in British Columbia was on the 2004 Sequoia, an SUV that carries an MSRP of $63,620.
The Sequoia was fetching $63,171 at B.C. dealers, while CarCost members could pay $57,881 in Ontario, a $5,290 difference.
In Manitoba, dealers were asking $63,234, according to the Access Toyota website.
On the 2005 compact Corolla sport model, CarCost members in Ontario could pay $18,528, compared with the set price of $19,954 in British Columbia.
The Automobile Protection Association reached a similar conclusion by examining prices in Montreal, said George Iny, president of that consumer group.
Mr. Iny praised the other elements of the program, such as increased training for sales people and full disclosure of all charges.
"Hopefully they'll be able to keep those," Mr. Iny said.
Dealers in regions where the program has been in place for some time disputed the notion that consumers weren't getting a fair deal.
"The whole process is seamless and so much better for the consumer," said one.
11-02-2004 | 09:26 AM
#15
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,868
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From: Brooklyn, NY
Wow,
Its amazing what you can do now a-days...
What are your prices up there? A friend of mine just paid 37k (down from 39) for a 05 4Runner ltd V6 with nav and sunroof. Savannah Toyota claims they are the #1 dealer in the southeast and they have a 110% price match so if you find a quote lower than theirs they will beat it by 10%. Good luck on your purchase!
Its amazing what you can do now a-days...
What are your prices up there? A friend of mine just paid 37k (down from 39) for a 05 4Runner ltd V6 with nav and sunroof. Savannah Toyota claims they are the #1 dealer in the southeast and they have a 110% price match so if you find a quote lower than theirs they will beat it by 10%. Good luck on your purchase!
11-02-2004 | 01:58 PM
#16
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Joined: May 2002
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From: Vancouver, BC
I guess I'm journalizing everything now.
Maral from Toyota Canada's Review team just called me. She took down all of my information and displeasures as I have meantioned before. I told her about the pricing fixing. From my understanding she said the dealerships are allowed to sell below the MSRP, but its up to them. Its not her exact words as she was very reluctant to answer my questions. She went into a speal how great the Access Pricing was. I asked her if I could go into a dealership and negociate a deal below MSRP. She said she could not "advise" me.
I asked her if I was going to hear anything from her in the future. The answer was NO, however Toyota will look into the situation.
So I got nowhere. I wished I got to ask if Toyota Canada enforces the dealers to sell At MSRP. Any one else wanna call them and complain?
Maral from Toyota Canada's Review team just called me. She took down all of my information and displeasures as I have meantioned before. I told her about the pricing fixing. From my understanding she said the dealerships are allowed to sell below the MSRP, but its up to them. Its not her exact words as she was very reluctant to answer my questions. She went into a speal how great the Access Pricing was. I asked her if I could go into a dealership and negociate a deal below MSRP. She said she could not "advise" me.
I asked her if I was going to hear anything from her in the future. The answer was NO, however Toyota will look into the situation.So I got nowhere. I wished I got to ask if Toyota Canada enforces the dealers to sell At MSRP. Any one else wanna call them and complain?
11-04-2004 | 06:29 PM
#17
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From: Vancouver, BC
BTW, I was contacted by a person at Canada's Competition Bureau. He says that the only way that Toyota Canada would be in violation of the Competition Act is in Section 61. Section 61 states that the supplier, whether this be Toyota Canada or some other entity, cannot punish a distributor (dealership) for selling a product below a suggested price.
Prior to the Access Toyota abandonment, I was told, by a salesman, that dealer's would get punished for selling below Access price. Today I do not know if this would still be the case.
The Competition Bureau would like to know if anybody has any evidence of this type that says it's still happening. Whether the evidence be a salesman telling you he can't give a deal because he'd catch crap or something else.
If you or anybody knows anything about this, please don't be scared to contact the Competition Bureau of Canada. They say everything you tell them will be kept in confidence.
http://competition.ic.gc.ca/epic/int.../ct02143e.html
Just a few more tidbits about the end to Access Toyota. I really hate how the BC and Alta dealers can get away with selling at full MSRP.
http://www.carcostcanada.com/en/rese...no=894&catid=6
http://www.carcostcanada.com/en/rese...no=895&catid=6
Prior to the Access Toyota abandonment, I was told, by a salesman, that dealer's would get punished for selling below Access price. Today I do not know if this would still be the case.
The Competition Bureau would like to know if anybody has any evidence of this type that says it's still happening. Whether the evidence be a salesman telling you he can't give a deal because he'd catch crap or something else.
If you or anybody knows anything about this, please don't be scared to contact the Competition Bureau of Canada. They say everything you tell them will be kept in confidence.
http://competition.ic.gc.ca/epic/int.../ct02143e.html
Just a few more tidbits about the end to Access Toyota. I really hate how the BC and Alta dealers can get away with selling at full MSRP.
http://www.carcostcanada.com/en/rese...no=894&catid=6
http://www.carcostcanada.com/en/rese...no=895&catid=6
11-06-2004 | 02:04 PM
#18
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 585
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From: NW Florida
In the US, if Toyota tells their dealers: "You must sell a Toyota for 'this" price and no less," that is legal.
If every dealer in the reigon gets together and decides they are all going to sell Toyota's at a certain price, that is illegal... It's price fixing.
If every dealer in the reigon gets together and decides they are all going to sell Toyota's at a certain price, that is illegal... It's price fixing.
12-07-2004 | 09:58 AM
#19
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From: Vancouver, BC
Guys,
Oscar and I have been in conversation the past month with the Competition Bureau of Canada. They are trying to make a case against Toyota Canada and its regional provincial dealers for its price fixing policies.
They want to hear from anyone who has had poor dealings with Toyota in regards with TOYOTA ACCESS PRICING. This would include those who have purchased and those who are planning to buy a Toyota in the near future.
They really want to put an end this illegal affair.
The individual below would like to here from you.
Eugene Besruky
email: Besruky.Eugene@cb-bc.gc.ca
Criminal Matters Branch
Bureau de la concurrence - 50, rue Victoria Gatineau (Québec) K1A 0C9
Competition Bureau - 50 Victoria Street Gatineau Quebec K1A 0C9
Gouvernement du Canada - Government of Canada
(819) 953-8538
www.cb-bc.gc.ca
Please contact him so that we don't have to be ripped off by TOYOTA any further. If you are shy, you can contact me so I can better direct your questions.
Oscar and I have been in conversation the past month with the Competition Bureau of Canada. They are trying to make a case against Toyota Canada and its regional provincial dealers for its price fixing policies.
They want to hear from anyone who has had poor dealings with Toyota in regards with TOYOTA ACCESS PRICING. This would include those who have purchased and those who are planning to buy a Toyota in the near future.
They really want to put an end this illegal affair.
The individual below would like to here from you.
Eugene Besruky
email: Besruky.Eugene@cb-bc.gc.ca
Criminal Matters Branch
Bureau de la concurrence - 50, rue Victoria Gatineau (Québec) K1A 0C9
Competition Bureau - 50 Victoria Street Gatineau Quebec K1A 0C9
Gouvernement du Canada - Government of Canada
(819) 953-8538
www.cb-bc.gc.ca
Please contact him so that we don't have to be ripped off by TOYOTA any further. If you are shy, you can contact me so I can better direct your questions.
Last edited by Grimace; 12-07-2004 at 10:43 AM.
