As far as I'm concerned there is a way Speedy, but there are just a few that have gotten bad boxes due to some quality control issues at the point of manufacturing. You have to understand that Mark unfortunately got 2 of those bad boxes and him and the owner of the "leading supplier of SplitSecond products in the Toyota truck community" don't seem to get along very well.

Speedy, I'd suggest you give the product a try yourself and if it doesn't work for you the "leading supplier of SplitSecond products in the Toyota truck community" stands behind their merchandise and will refund your money (or they have in the past), all you're out is your time and maybe shipping charges. So far mine seems to be working great, and like you point out what other option is there?

 

Ah, my favorite thread has new Tech in it!!! Yay!

I suspect that was me, we've had several discussions on Oxygen Sensor Calibrator theory and whether they work or not.

LOL you crack me up Mark

I'm absolutely not surprised that the ECU compensates for the extra fuel if you do nothing to defeat the oxygen sensor's signal. As a point of fact, the ECU is doing exactly what it was designed to do with it's fuel trims. I'm kind of suprised it even takes that long, my ECU will start to apply long term fuel trims in as few as 50 miles, and the short term fuel trims do a lot of adjusting almost immediately.

Yes indeed, intercepting the MAF signal alone cannot permanently change the AFR you are running at in closed loop because the ECU still sees the outputs of both yours and its cumulative efforts. In my case, I haven't been able to affect the AFR in any cell for more than 20 seconds unless the oxygen sensor clamp is active.

Well it would seem to me that the theory and application are quite sound, as I have had quite a bit of luck at getting my engine to run rich under boost. I've been doing some fine-tuning in my fuel map lately to try and get my idle smoother, but I've gone as far as 600 miles between ECU resets, and right before that reset the FTC was still able to richen the fuel mixture in the closed loop boost region.

Additionally, when using the OBD-II reader to watch the fuel trims, my fuel trims stay very close to zero while in closed loop boost, even after letting the long-term fuel trims take hold. If I was not using the oxygen sensor calibrator while richening the mixture, the fuel trims would be large negative values; this is obviously because the ECU knows that the mixture is far too rich, and it is slowly but surely removing fuel through the highly damped response of the long term fuel trims.

Based on a comparison of your and my experiences, it would seem to me that the oxygen sensor calibrator is indeed doing its job. Why your experiences with the ESC-1 were so negative is up to much speculation; perhaps the ESC design is faulty while the FTC1-E goes for the same result using a similar but different method (specifically in the area of voltage sourcing).

But, adding fuel without addressing the oxygen sensor feedback loop is just setting you up for inevitable failure. It would almost be more effective to remove the oxygen sensor and instead tune the entire fuel map, just living with the CEL (hmm, would this be possible?).

Things do get a little finicky on the line between open and closed loop, but I feel that I've been making steady progress in blurring the line.

This is definitely a problem I've run into. Also, things don't work the same when the engine first warms up, and I've found that running into the closed-loop boost region before warming up can cause strange things to happen, like going WAY too rich (9.0:1 AFR) or sometimes a CEL gets thrown. During warm-up I have to take it easy, and once things are warm everything is happy.

I've also seen some strange inconsistencies in the FTC's operation when running in closed loop boost for an extended period of time (like going up a mountain) where the oxygen sensor clamp "appears" to not turn off, and other situations where it doesn't turn on. I suspect some of these occurrences have to do with the FTC and/or ECU not being able to keep up with quickly varying throttle inputs like flooring it and immediately pulling off the gas. Usually, it is able to figure itself out given some time.

Hmm, I'm not sure I would generalize that a factory forced induction vehicle runs at stoich all the time. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find the manufacturer richens the mixture under certain conditions. It's really hard to say whether running at 14.7:1 under boost is dangerous to your engine unless you have an EGT gauge (which you do, just not yet installed). I'm sure you will see a significant difference in you EGT's between 12:1 operation and stoich. The question is, will that rise in temp be too much for the valves and/or pistons?

Overall Speedy, like Dale suggested I would buy the AFRSC and see if it works. Dale seems to have had some good experiences with it, and like he said, if it doesn't work you should go after the supplier and demand they stand behind their product. BUT, I suspect that it will work for you.

Longest post EVAR

 

I didn't realize there were some QA issues with these. That would explain a lot. There's a TON of people that got these a couple years ago over on Custom Tacos. They all posted very positive results with the AFR Calibrators, I'm just not sure how long term the results were. I'll fire off a few PMs to them to see if they have any further info.

 

I'd like to point out that the URD AFRSC and the SplitSecond ESC-1 are two very different units. Mark's bad experiences were with the ESC-1 and as such they can't really be transferred to the AFRSC. Anyone that got a a unit "a couple years ago" also got the ESC-1, and their experiences can't really be compared to the AFRSC, which just came out a few months ago AFAIK.

 

These are specifically the AFR Calibrator, as that's what would be used for my vehicle, and of course what I researched. I linked above to a post where there were issues during a dyno tuning session. You should read through that to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

 

Brian, Dale...

I just want to point out that I _DID_ leave the door open for Speedy to try this on his own. I fully admit that while I (and a few others) have had issues with the ESC1 as a specific, he might have a good experience with the AFRSC or the FTC1-E.You guys should also know that Speedy took me up on my offer to babble in PM; he got an earful.

 

Yeah I saw that Mark, and if I'd been though the trouble you went through, I'd probably feel the same way. BTW what is YMMV?

 

Well, I'm not as interested in making him try the SplitSecond products as I am in defending the possibility of successfully faking out/clamping the oxygen sensor's signal. Perhaps it is not 100% effective, but it's leaps and bounds more effective than just dumping fuel and resetting your ECU every tank of gas.

Overall, I'm definitely not 100% sure that SS FTC1 is the best way to go. However, it is nice to have the tuning experiences of many other people that use the exact same unit on the exact same engine. I kind of wish URD would look into supplying PP products as well, but I'm guessing there's an issue since SS would not look favorably on it, and they (URD and SS) have done a lot of work together to get to the point they are currently at.

I've done some reading on the capabilities of the Perfect Power SMT6 and SMT7, and I have to say they sound very impressive. I am most curious about the stated ability for the SMT7 to run in a "closed loop lambda (fuel loop)" feedback mode using a wideband oxygen sensor. Perfect Power's description of this capability is very limited, I might have to just download the SMT7's manual and read the whole thing. It seems to me that a piggyback control unit that is able to see the output of its efforts (specifically AFR) would be able to adaptively change it's fuel map to account for changes in ambient temperature and ECU modes of operation. Talk about easy tuning. Of course at that point it might be easier (and similar in price) to go with a full replacement fuel management system like the MegaSquirt or XMS.

I have to say some days I think it would be a lot easier to just get a full replacement engine management unit, and dump the factory ECU altogether, but there are so many different functions the ECU is tied into (things like gauge function especially, and all of the engine diagnostic equipment) I'm not sure it could ever be effectively implemented... I guess we'll see where Austin gets with his setup.

I think it's something to the effect of "your results may vary."

 

Yeah, this is quite an undertaking to do this right. I NEVER do things half way, and doing things right really adds multiple levels of complexity. I've spoken to a tuner who specializes on Toyota vehicles on in CA. He said NO WAY would he run a supercharger on a Toyota without something to deal with the closed loop AFR situation.

I'm gonna take a step back and re-evaluate some things.

He said he had VERY good results when he ditched the factory ECUs, but that was solely on race trucks for Baja or something to that effect as the EMS systems didn't have any OBDII output diags so passing emissions is out of the question.

Once I get everything squared away I'll give the AFR Calibrator a try to see how it reacts to my vehicle.

 

Does anyone know how the AFR Calibrator works? Does it put the vehicle in Open Loop at a certain manifold air pressure setting (boost)? So say I want it to come into play at .5 psi and gradually come on stronger the more boost is applied up to open loop.

I've read two huge threads on CT about it, but no one ever really said how it worked.

 

It doesn't "technically" throw the ECU into open loop mode, but the functionality is similar. From what I understand, it has a table of values in a programmable map (fuel percentage - rpm - MAP) and can give the ECU a simulated AFR reading, so that the ECU will think it is 14.7 when it isn't, and then modifies the MAF sensor signal to dump in more fuel.

At least, that's my limited understanding of how it works. It seems contradictory though, because then the AFRSC has a duplicate map that the FTC already has, when all it really needs is a programmed value of when to "turn on."

 

With what little tuning I've done so far I have noticed I seem to go into open loop very fast, like way before the 80% throttle I've heard about, maybe more like 50-60% throttle. I need more research to say for sure though.

 

Thanks, keep me posted on your results please. I'll shoot URD an e-mail as well to see if I can get a more in depth explanation.

Any body have thoughts on installing the SC? I've got 18 months left of power train warranty (6 year 100K miles) and I won't come near the 100K by then (only at 63K now). There's a local dealer that's pretty good so I went by there and talked to them. When I said TRD SC all the service advisers pointed to this one guy all at once. Kinda funny. He had worked there 18 years and was really cool to talk with. I told him what I was thinking about, asked about the warranty, and he made a couple phone calls to make sure it would all be covered.

Bottom line it is, and the install is $530. He said they'd done 3 SC installs on 4Runners and none had come back with any problems.

I asked him if he'd ever seen problems and he said 2. One guy put the SC on at over 100K miles and drove it like a drag car and blew up the bottom end.

Another lady had one on hers and got a CE light for lean condition but kept driving it on a road trip. It melted the plugs and burned the valves. The culprit was a faulty MAF sensor.

I asked if there was any way I could assist with the install so I'd know how it's done and he said if it were up to him he'd say grab a wrench, but that his shop manager didn't step outside his little box and wouldn't allow it due to liability.

So the question....have it dealer installed for the security of 18 months worth of power train warranty at a cost of $530 or do it myself and put the $530 into something else?

 

I don't think that warrantee would stay with the additional things going on the engine... so to get any possible warrantee stuff done you'd have to first remove the 7th injector and disable the controller, and hope they don't ask any questions about all the fancy gauges and stuff.

Keeping the warrantee for an extra year and a half would be nice to help cover the minor stuff, but I'm not sure they'll cover anything if they suspect you've been messing with the engine's tune. So to REALLY keep the warrantee, you'll have to get the TRD 7th injector instead of the URD one, and then sneakily add the URD 7th injector controller.

 

Good point. Eeeeh, just ignore the space shuttle lay out in the dash there, that's just so I know what time it is at any time zone in the world (heh).

 

I'm reminded of this thread:
http://www.customtacos.com/forum/sho...ighlight=worse

 

Wait... You've mentioned this a couple of times and I'm confused.

The Magnuson Moss Warranty Act protects your warranty as you install after market parts:The whole kit & kaboodle is is here:

http://www.autoanything.com/popups/moss_warranty.aspx


Oh, and "YMMV" is "Your Mileage May Vary", basically what Brian said.

 

I was thinking that might come in to play, but it would be a HUGE battle I'm sure if something catastrophic happened. However, people are running around SC'd with NO mods whatsoever and lasting for years before cracking heads so I doubt I'd have issues especially trying to do this right.

One of my thoughts was to let them install it, then when it ran lean, which I could prove with my WB gauge in the dash, they'd have to provide a fix, such as the 7th injector unless they tried to tell me that running at 17:1 AFR at WOT wasn't a problem.

 

Well, they aren't going to give you a 7th injector kit for free, that's for sure. Dealerships are still businesses, and won't pay money if they can find a way not to. In the case of your supercharged 3.4, I don't think it's much of a stretch to think they would blame any kind of engine failure on your modifications.

All I'm sayin' is it'll be a rough road trying to get them to warrantee it even if you do have them install it, and if you install it you have just saved enough for a data logging system.

 

aye... and if they're claiming they'll warrantee it, GET IT IN WRITING!