99_Runner

This is interesting. Hey node, any more work on the 3.4 turbo headers for the 4Runners and trucks?

AK95Taco

Actually “Duffdog” is onto something there… You missed one important part of his idea, he said proportionally change the O2 sensor voltages. So the computer isn’t seeing a constant voltage, it’s seeing a % of the actual. For example if you wanted a closed loop AFR of 13.2 then you would set it at 111% of actual (making the ECU tune to 90% of 14.7 or 13.2).

You are right though you still need to adjust the MAF signal with an FTC or SMT6 for open loop tuning.

Oh yeah and Duffdog sorry to tell you this little device already exists Here

Just my $.02

Weasy2k

Yea i see how that can work but then at idle through to 50% throttle you will be putting out alot more fuel then you need to KILLING your gasmilage....more then i thought at once when i was playing with the smt6's features

AK95Taco

Easy fix there is to just have it turn on under boost conditions. The way the unit I linked in my last post works, is that it starts richening the mixture at low boost and slowly increases it to an AFR of 12.5 so when the ECU goes to Open Loop it is already at the correct AFR. There is still a slight loss of mileage but only while under boost and really I would think you would bearly see it.

Acording to a couple of guys on TTORA it is suposedly working out quite well. I guess it makes the treansition from closed to open loop much less drastic. It's funny becasue that was one of the reasons I removed my S/C...

Unfortnaltely this unit only works on 99's and newer, (mine is a 95 so no dice) but if I was S/Cing or for that mater T/Cing a newer one I would consider it a must have.

marko3xl3

Darn, I was wrong about the whole backpressure thing...sorry guys. Think before you speak I guess. It makes sense...you wanna get rid of the gases ASAP, and the turbo itself is giving the engine enough backpressure. DOH! Again, sorry.

Anyways, Node...I was just wondering when you'll be ready to sell your custom manifolds and downpipes and whatnot. If I do T/C I was thinking of buying the custom fab work from you and get a turbo wherever.

Thank You,
Marko

Weasy2k

If your talking about the air/fuel ratio thing that urd sells then thats great...but that only works with AIR/FUEL ratio sensors NOT lambda sensors dont confuse the 2 as its a different sensor. <- which was pointed out

And returnign to that little pot to fix the afr....i dont want a little dial thing to determine my afr....i rather see it on the screen and work with it its the best way to squeeze every bit of power and economy out of the engine. Also hows that going to fix your high gear low rpm ping?
Theres alot more to FI a engine then jsut afr

node

The nearest date they may be available (for sale) is around Dec 29. The full production runs (higher quality) of the manifolds wont be ready till mid Jan given everything goes well with my bulk order of materials. I should have some exact pricing for you guys by Jan 1st. I will also have dyno graphs for the different turbo selections in two or three weeks.

Things are progressing well guys, the kit is turning out cleaner looking than I expected.

DavidA

Node...remind me...can/are you going to price a "total" kit for a person with a base engine? I have the feeling that this kit will be very installable for a person that is a shade tree mechanic.

Bumpin' Yota

and any ideas on the 3.0L production run? hint hint!

If my compression checks out im going to do it...*gulp*

268,000 on the clock!

Duffdog

-- Well, since you probably know why ping is created ( due to incorrect a/f mixture for a given timing setting) then it would be possible to tune the engine to automatically adjust the fuel ratio to be just above pinging at the lowest possible a/f ratio-- the computer would then lean the other rich conditions automatically. This is how the computer eliminates pinging anyways-- the lowest a/f ratio is the baseline to eliminate pinging under all circumstances and the rest of the points on the fuel map are definitely leaner. I was also talking about adjusting the signal from the lambda ( I never understood why people keep using that stupid volvo term) read-- oxygen sensor and connecting both op amps together so that they mimic the lean condition as a proportional difference that the computer accepts as a properly functioning catalytic converter AND a lean condition to prevent the check engine light. You cant use a pot on the signal anyways, because the increasing resistance loads the computers current source and it appears as a broken sensor, you must send the signals through their own individual op amps configured as subtractors or adders to make the ecu think that nothing is wrong. My design incorporates 3 op amps and a bucket brigade delay to give good info to the computer--

op amp 1 controls the signal from the MAF
op amp 2 controls the signal from the pre cat 02 sensor
op amp 3 controls the signal from the post cat 02 sensor
the bucket brigade digital delay can be used to either advance or retard the crank signal for timing issues if needed.

This theoretically solves all problems except for the MAP sensor -- which im not sure how it would respond in signal sense to increase boost or anything.

Tim

midiwall

This is fun.

I might suggest though to run everything through a PIC - that'd eliminate the need for a BBD (which can be prone to static damage), give you the ability to handle live user I/O for tweaking, and let you apply some decent math to create "maps" or some other non-linear form of massaging inputs to outputs.

Duffdog

Or, I could simply just use a basic stamp-- although a PIC definitely has the ability for future programming. I was actually thinking of trying to use MS excel to output instantaneous values based on predetermined input equations, that could be a really cheap way to do this.

T

DavidA

Need to interface it with a cheap dashmount PDA and away you go! Pop it out of the interface holder, take it inside and dump the data to a desktop for analysis. Would be very cool.

midiwall

Yeah, you should be able to handle the I/O with a stamp as well. I'm just more familiar with PICs, so I went that route.


Hmmm... {think. think. think.}

Weasy2k

The computer does not adjust afr to stop pinging it retards the ignition....the computer will rather keep the afr at 14.7 then richen it to avoid pinging as 1 degree of retard has more effect then dropping the fuel by 1 afr..people with piggybacks go and try this pull timing by a couple degrees to remove ping then put it back to bring back some ping then see HOW MUCH fuel you have to put in to remove it....
So from starting off by saying "one simple pot" has turned into a set of pots that have to be tweaked...man 6 wires into smt6 and 1 hour of tuning....im sold Also can you please add a 7th injector map too? 3d water injection?

I mean if piggybacks costs over 1000 bucks i can see why yuo would want to got this route but hell the smt6 is now in the range of 350 and thanks to the crappy american dollar its only bound to go lower...why bother with that kind of hassle

Anyway its pirtty good ideas but i would love to see it all work on the truck perfectly and have the dyno cahrt to show teh afr values properly set to make the power I only wish i had that indepth knowledge of electronics, would be fun to play around with!

node

3.4L Test Update:

I have been testing the single turbo manifold for two days now. I used the MR2 small compressor wheel with a SUPRA CT-26-A turbine housing. The throttle responce is VERY quick. The turbo spools as soon as the engine is off idel. The power is even across the full rpm range and only falls off slightly about 100 or 200 RPM before feul cut. Thats not a problem since many of you guys have autos. For those with manuals I would suggest the "A" compressor wheel that should hold boost well past redline but will take just a fraction of a second longer to spool (I doubt anyone could actually feel the difference in spool since it really is just about instantanious). Im extremely happy with the test so far. The stock ECU handles the fueing requirements at 7 psi quite well and the turbo quiets the exhaust a LOT.

The virdict so far is that a smaller turbo with a fairly large AR turbine housing is going to be the setup of choice for those who dont want to mess around with the fuel system.

DavidA

I have a 2WD auto....SWEETTTTTT!!!!!! I think I know where my tax return is going.

MTL_4runner

This is music to my ears.....fast spooling turbo with little/no fuel mods is exactly what I am looking for!!!
I really can't wait to see the end results of this project.

Any manifolds I get will have to get jet coated because we have really nasty salty roads up here.
Might be something to look into as well.

984RNR

any idea yet on price for the one you are testing right now

Weasy2k

Fuel mods are still stressed tho!!

Please understand the requirments for your injectors to keep there temps down...which generaly is 80% as a MAX of open time..
I will use math to help me out here
Stock 5vz injectors are 248cc (post 96 pre is 23 something)
Stock rail pressure is around 48...
Will say the basic power goal for most is 300CRANK hp thats 240whp so very easy around 7psi...

According to RCENG even at 90rail psi (which will never happen unless you get a fuel pressure regulator) you are goign to need 274cc injectors to run at 80% duty cycle...
Now at 100% you need 217cc injectors.... so we are sitting in the 90% range of the duty cycle....
SO
Truck A: has the above setup
Truck B: has fuel system upgrade (urd or the upcoming S2S kit)

Truck A will run just as well as Truck B.....until the one day your driving and the injectors get to hot for being overrun....(aka a cold day = more air)....the injector would either A sieze up and not fire fuel in and pop...there goes the piston/valve etc...
B = spatter fuel everywhere thus decreasing the performance big time and also causing a sever lean out problem in that cyl due to the spray hitting the intake manifold walls and not going properly into the combustion chamber...

Truck B: will be happy

Now to ge tmore realistic then above...most stock toyota fuel systems is again 248 @ 41psi....run 7psi boost with 1:1 riser (free fmu by gadget) you are now at 48psi....
So again with the 300power goal....your running at 99-100% !! Death to your injectors...

Again this may not show its head in 5k km...smaybe even 10k depending on the condition of the stock injectors... you will kill them Read up on some of gadgets findings as well...

That is the look at what CAN happen when you push it on the stock system....

Other then that...giver!