clackity-clackity-clackity
#1
clackity-clackity-clackity
My engine has been running like poo for a long while now. Underpowered, bad gas milage, rough idle, lights dim with rough idle, eats oil if it aint straight HD30, have to keep the ECT button on in order to drive on the freeway, etc...
I'm getting on the freeway this morning and the engine starts reving real high but I'm not getting any faster. So I let off and all I could maintain was 40mph, but with the aweful sound that this thread is appropriately titled after. So I check gauges and nothing new. My check engine light is still on from my code 25 (that I can't figure out) and nothing is overheating, but hey! My oil pressure is falling and now gone! I nursed it home (only about a mile away) going very slowly and watched the engine temp. Got it home and stuck 3 quarts in it to top it off and fired her up. Looked for leaks and found none. Checked the codes again and now I have a 14 & 25. The 14 could have triggered at anytime in the last few months as the light has been on for a long time. So I cleared out the codes and fired it up again to pin point the noise. It seems to be coming from the top of the engine block.
Does anyone know where I should start looking for problems or what I should do? Would it be better/cost as much to just put in that 3.4 now? The sound kicks in at over 3000RPM.
BTW I am @ 188,000 miles.
I'm getting on the freeway this morning and the engine starts reving real high but I'm not getting any faster. So I let off and all I could maintain was 40mph, but with the aweful sound that this thread is appropriately titled after. So I check gauges and nothing new. My check engine light is still on from my code 25 (that I can't figure out) and nothing is overheating, but hey! My oil pressure is falling and now gone! I nursed it home (only about a mile away) going very slowly and watched the engine temp. Got it home and stuck 3 quarts in it to top it off and fired her up. Looked for leaks and found none. Checked the codes again and now I have a 14 & 25. The 14 could have triggered at anytime in the last few months as the light has been on for a long time. So I cleared out the codes and fired it up again to pin point the noise. It seems to be coming from the top of the engine block.
Does anyone know where I should start looking for problems or what I should do? Would it be better/cost as much to just put in that 3.4 now? The sound kicks in at over 3000RPM.
BTW I am @ 188,000 miles.
#2
Contributing Member
Ouch, maybe lifter damage? Losing that much oil is a major issue, you might be dumping it straight into your cylinders, was it smoking a lot? Working on a problem that serious may be money in a fire later on, might be time to invest in an engine swap.
Might I suggest a Vortec Chevy small block?
Might I suggest a Vortec Chevy small block?
#4
Originally Posted by mastacox
was it smoking a lot?
Originally Posted by mastacox
Working on a problem that serious may be money in a fire later on, might be time to invest in an engine swap.
Originally Posted by mastacox
Might I suggest a Vortec Chevy small block?
Originally Posted by bike4miles
Yea, sounds like RIP for that motor.
Last edited by TRunner; 06-09-2004 at 01:13 PM.
#5
Contributing Member
Bummer...
I'm dreading your problems. I agree about the swap though...time to think about what else is going in that engine bay. There's nothing wrong with a nice small block Chevy or Ford...Lots of juice when you step in it and it probably wouldn't get any worse gas mileage than what you got before the problems. Those 3.4's still command pretty good prices...you could get a new crate engine for about the same.
I'm dreading your problems. I agree about the swap though...time to think about what else is going in that engine bay. There's nothing wrong with a nice small block Chevy or Ford...Lots of juice when you step in it and it probably wouldn't get any worse gas mileage than what you got before the problems. Those 3.4's still command pretty good prices...you could get a new crate engine for about the same.
#6
Update
Pulled the valve cover on the side that seemed to be making the most noise, thinking we have a collapsed valve. I still need to pull that head this weekend in order to check the valve, but I am wondering why it would collapse.
Where is the oil pump and how often do they fail?
Does the oil feed run from front to back?
The reason I am asking is, the noise is comming from the back of the block meaning if it is a collapsed valve, then it is one in the back. Would the lack of oil or the pumping of oil cause this vavle to fail before others?
All in all, it appears I am at least going to get the fuel injectors flow tested, looks like a valve job is in order (anyone know any good cheap places?), and I might as well replace the timing belt. As for eating a quart of oil every 750 miles, I think the rungs should be replaced and cylindars honed.
Does all this sound about right to you grease monkeys?
Where is the oil pump and how often do they fail?
Does the oil feed run from front to back?
The reason I am asking is, the noise is comming from the back of the block meaning if it is a collapsed valve, then it is one in the back. Would the lack of oil or the pumping of oil cause this vavle to fail before others?
All in all, it appears I am at least going to get the fuel injectors flow tested, looks like a valve job is in order (anyone know any good cheap places?), and I might as well replace the timing belt. As for eating a quart of oil every 750 miles, I think the rungs should be replaced and cylindars honed.
Does all this sound about right to you grease monkeys?
#7
My friend - the most expensive part of this operation will be the Heads - Look for around $700-800 for the machine work.
Once you've got the heads off - you can buy a rebuilt short block for $1200 or so. You can also have the short block rebuilt for around 6-700.
Then throw in all of the miscellaneous pulley's, idlers, water pump and oil pump --you might look to spend around $2500.00 when it's all said and done.
That is what it cost me and I just got done. Probably not worth it for a truck with 188K miles. (Mine only has a 100k)
Once you've got the heads off - you can buy a rebuilt short block for $1200 or so. You can also have the short block rebuilt for around 6-700.
Then throw in all of the miscellaneous pulley's, idlers, water pump and oil pump --you might look to spend around $2500.00 when it's all said and done.
That is what it cost me and I just got done. Probably not worth it for a truck with 188K miles. (Mine only has a 100k)
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#8
Originally Posted by radrex
My friend - the most expensive part of this operation will be the Heads - Look for around $700-800 for the machine work.
Once you've got the heads off - you can buy a rebuilt short block for $1200 or so. You can also have the short block rebuilt for around 6-700.
Then throw in all of the miscellaneous pulley's, idlers, water pump and oil pump --you might look to spend around $2500.00 when it's all said and done.
That is what it cost me and I just got done. Probably not worth it for a truck with 188K miles. (Mine only has a 100k)
Once you've got the heads off - you can buy a rebuilt short block for $1200 or so. You can also have the short block rebuilt for around 6-700.
Then throw in all of the miscellaneous pulley's, idlers, water pump and oil pump --you might look to spend around $2500.00 when it's all said and done.
That is what it cost me and I just got done. Probably not worth it for a truck with 188K miles. (Mine only has a 100k)
Or do I sound like an ignoramous?
If it is that much, then engine swap time it is!!!!
#9
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Chelmsford, MA
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Almost the same thing happend to me a few weeks ago, but no major oil leaks. Some dude said it was possibly crank damage but I am not 100% sure. As of now I am throwing a 22RE with 90k on it (87 4Runner is what I have now). I will also pull the current engine and try to rebuild it, hoping there Is no damage to the block itself. I will also probably do a valve job. If i can then maybe I'll make myself a new trail rig, but I dont want to look that far ahead... Well good luck to ya!
#10
No - I'm saying that it's gonna cost somewhere in the vicinity of 600-700 just for a "Valve Job" at a machine shop-- and another 200 for the Gasket Set. That's if no valves need to be replaced and they don't need to have any cracks welded etc..
You can purchase "Rebuilt Heads" for about the same price if your cores are good.
My point is once your down $1000.00 or so on the Head rebuild - might as well go for the gusto and do the lower end as well.
If your going to try to do the work yourself - It will take many many hours and a goodly amount of skill to pull it off.
My Toyota Dealer - wants $3000.00 just to replace a head gasket on a 3vze - Lots of Hours labor.
It took me a few months to rebuild my 3vze - working on weekends of course
You can purchase "Rebuilt Heads" for about the same price if your cores are good.
My point is once your down $1000.00 or so on the Head rebuild - might as well go for the gusto and do the lower end as well.
If your going to try to do the work yourself - It will take many many hours and a goodly amount of skill to pull it off.
My Toyota Dealer - wants $3000.00 just to replace a head gasket on a 3vze - Lots of Hours labor.
It took me a few months to rebuild my 3vze - working on weekends of course
#11
Originally Posted by radrex
No - I'm saying that it's gonna cost somewhere in the vicinity of 600-700 just for a "Valve Job" at a machine shop-- and another 200 for the Gasket Set. That's if no valves need to be replaced and they don't need to have any cracks welded etc..
If am starting to look like it will be over $2500 it will be a new engine for sure, but right now this is what it looks like:
gaskets and belts = $200
Valve job = $600
Injectors flowtested and cleaned = $80
oil and filter = $20
BTW - have someone else do the head gasket. $3000 is about $1800 too much. I have seen less hours charged to remove an old and put in a new engine... Including the head gasket!
Last edited by TRunner; 06-10-2004 at 12:09 PM.
#12
Splitting hairs here - but 200.00 is optimistic for Gaskets and Belts. 300.00 is more like it. Especially if your getting the timing belt and all the injector gaskets.
Head Bolts - $60.00 cause you can't reuse the old ones
Then of course - your going to change the water pump, probably the timing idlers - front seal. Another 200-300.
It cost me 150.00 to have RC Engineering do my injectors.
While you have the heads off - might as well replace the Starter cause it is seriously buried - 130.00 (Bosch)
At the end of the day, You might as well do it right the first time.
Head Bolts - $60.00 cause you can't reuse the old ones
Then of course - your going to change the water pump, probably the timing idlers - front seal. Another 200-300.
It cost me 150.00 to have RC Engineering do my injectors.
While you have the heads off - might as well replace the Starter cause it is seriously buried - 130.00 (Bosch)
At the end of the day, You might as well do it right the first time.
#13
Originally Posted by radrex
Splitting hairs here - but 200.00 is optimistic for Gaskets and Belts. 300.00 is more like it. Especially if your getting the timing belt and all the injector gaskets.
Originally Posted by radrex
Head Bolts - $60.00 cause you can't reuse the old ones
Originally Posted by radrex
Then of course - your going to change the water pump, probably the timing idlers - front seal. Another 200-300.
Originally Posted by radrex
It cost me 150.00 to have RC Engineering do my injectors.
Originally Posted by radrex
While you have the heads off - might as well replace the Starter cause it is seriously buried - 130.00 (Bosch)
Originally Posted by radrex
At the end of the day, You might as well do it right the first time.
#14
You get what you pay for.. Personally, I can vouch for RC Engineering. They even provided me the before and after test results - and the injectors looked brand new and had new Rubber Gaskets. Well worth the 24 bucks in my opinion. Good luck with the 12 dollar guy.
Good luck on the Re-build.
Good luck on the Re-build.
#15
Originally Posted by radrex
Good luck with the 12 dollar guy.
#17
Grease monkey here ! Why fix anything.Youv'e been driving it for months with the check engine light on,the engine running on less than six cylinders,and then you state you drove home slowly with no oil pressure. Now your whining about cost ?........................Give us a break !
#18
Registered User
You sure you don't have rod bearings going? Low oil pressure is a tell tale sign of bad bearings. You are likely hearing rod end knock.
This is what your oil pump looks like:
Here it is installed:
As far as having the heads machined look at about $200-250 range. I had mine resurfaced, cleaned and a 3 angle valve grind done for that.
If your cam journals are in good shape that will save you some money as well.
I put new standard rod end bearings on $45 and main bearings $45 and a new ring set on $80.
I just cleaned up my crank I didn't get it machined because if they are in good shape why bother.
New oil pump $65
Dude it's not hard to shim your valves just very time consuming. I did it a not too long ago when I rebuilt my 3 slow. All you have to have is a feeler gauge and a micrometer write the measurements down as you check each intake and exhaust valve to get them into spec. The easiest way is to turn it with the timing belt on the cams with the cams torqued down to spec check all the valves make a chart with each cylinder intake and exhaust measurements. Then pull the cams off and mic each valve shim per cylinder add or subract what you will need to get it into spec. Go out and get the shims that you will need from a engine rebuild shop because toyota will charge you 2x's what they sell them for at a engine shop. I got the valve shims for about $4 a peice at a engine shop. Put the shims in and cams and T-belt back on then check the gaps again with the feeler gauge and repeat if necessary no real mystery to it. The only real pita is trying to get the valve shims out of the valve spring buckets I found using a small flat tip screw driver works though. I think it was worth not spending the $600-700 to have someone do it cause you can do it yourself for less than $50 with the shims.
So in all I think I spent about $700-800 rebuilding my engine.
This is what your oil pump looks like:
Here it is installed:
As far as having the heads machined look at about $200-250 range. I had mine resurfaced, cleaned and a 3 angle valve grind done for that.
If your cam journals are in good shape that will save you some money as well.
I put new standard rod end bearings on $45 and main bearings $45 and a new ring set on $80.
I just cleaned up my crank I didn't get it machined because if they are in good shape why bother.
New oil pump $65
Dude it's not hard to shim your valves just very time consuming. I did it a not too long ago when I rebuilt my 3 slow. All you have to have is a feeler gauge and a micrometer write the measurements down as you check each intake and exhaust valve to get them into spec. The easiest way is to turn it with the timing belt on the cams with the cams torqued down to spec check all the valves make a chart with each cylinder intake and exhaust measurements. Then pull the cams off and mic each valve shim per cylinder add or subract what you will need to get it into spec. Go out and get the shims that you will need from a engine rebuild shop because toyota will charge you 2x's what they sell them for at a engine shop. I got the valve shims for about $4 a peice at a engine shop. Put the shims in and cams and T-belt back on then check the gaps again with the feeler gauge and repeat if necessary no real mystery to it. The only real pita is trying to get the valve shims out of the valve spring buckets I found using a small flat tip screw driver works though. I think it was worth not spending the $600-700 to have someone do it cause you can do it yourself for less than $50 with the shims.
So in all I think I spent about $700-800 rebuilding my engine.
Last edited by 934rnr; 06-12-2004 at 05:45 AM.
#19
Originally Posted by HondaTec521
Grease monkey here ! Why fix anything.Youv'e been driving it for months with the check engine light on,the engine running on less than six cylinders,and then you state you drove home slowly with no oil pressure. Now your whining about cost ?........................Give us a break !
So you ask why fix anything? Because it's freaking broke!
You wonder why I am whining about cost? Because I am freaking broke! I don't have an endless supply of money and I know for a fact that paying as much as radrex does for anything is completely avoidable if you just get your hands dirty and have some fun working on your own rig.
What happened to the comrodoery if this place? It seems that there are more folks bashing then helping. What happend to all the wonderful help like what 934rnr just gave?
#20
Originally Posted by 934rnr
You sure you don't have rod bearings going? Low oil pressure is a tell tale sign of bad bearings. You are likely hearing rod end knock.
Originally Posted by 934rnr
As far as having the heads machined look at about $200-250 range. I had mine resurfaced, cleaned and a 3 angle valve grind done for that.
If your cam journals are in good shape that will save you some money as well.
I put new standard rod end bearings on $45 and main bearings $45 and a new ring set on $80.
I just cleaned up my crank I didn't get it machined because if they are in good shape why bother.
New oil pump $65
Dude it's not hard to shim your valves just very time consuming.So in all I think I spent about $700-800 rebuilding my engine.
If your cam journals are in good shape that will save you some money as well.
I put new standard rod end bearings on $45 and main bearings $45 and a new ring set on $80.
I just cleaned up my crank I didn't get it machined because if they are in good shape why bother.
New oil pump $65
Dude it's not hard to shim your valves just very time consuming.So in all I think I spent about $700-800 rebuilding my engine.
Thanks for all the input and suggestions!!!!!