knocking 4runner

I posted the other day because I was wondering if anyone had problems with there 4runner sounding like the motor was knocking and the dealership has told me it is a trait of the vehicle. After calling Customer relations at toyota I received papers today to begin Arbitration. Anyone ever had to do this?

Think I have a chance to get my money back on a vehicle I purchased in April and started having problems 1 month after I purchased it? I have been to the dealership 5 times and the warranty has paid out $1600 on the vehicle. It is a '99.

roger

I don't know since I've never been in that situation. But nothing ventured, nothing gained, no?

'99 runner

I've never been through it but several of my friends who are lawyers go through arbitration all the time. It's basically both sides giving up their right to sue and agree to meet in front of a panel of independent industry experts.

It's kind of like a trial where you both present your cases, and then a judgment is decided. However, the judges are industry experts and have no affiliation with either party so they a) know what you're talking about b) can make an informed decision with their breadth of knowledge and c) minimize legal fees.

Depending on your organizational, speaking, and debating skills, you may want to hire an attorney to act on your behalf. If you don't understand every single word in the packet they just sent you, I'd definitely hire an attorney to look the paperwork over and discuss your rights.

Hope that helps!

-'99 Runner

Gadget

I have been through aribtration. It is just flat amazing how hard Toyota will fight you on the dumbest things. My case was over a bad wheel. They swore up and down it is completely normal for a 4Runner to shake its self apart going down the road.

Anyway, unless you are experienced at testifying in court and preparing cases for court you will need to get a lawyer to guide you through the process or you will loose. It would be nice to have the lawyer there with you and to have an expert witness there to testify on your behalf or you will loose.

Toyota are going to have their experts there saying that piston slap is "normal" condition and it in no way affects the vehicle in a negative fashion. This expert will have all kinds of schools, experience, doccumentation and so on that will give him credibility. What are you going to have to counter that? Are you an expert witness that has been admited to the courts as such?

Anyway, this whole lemon law thing is just a big scam. No matter what you will still have to end up in court suing Toyota.

It is a real shame that Toyota operates this way. They do make nice vehicles, but the people representing them in this country are trying so hard to put them out of business by ˟˟˟˟ting on their own customers.

By the way, I beat Toyota in arbitration. Now find two others that have done so and I will be amazed. I have been tesifying in court for 20 years and I did have an advantage over the average person going into arbitraion.

Gadget

Transdude

Don't do the arbitration! Call a lawyer, it shouldn't cost you anything.

I went through the same thing with GM.

Try something like this:
http://lemonlaw.com/

-John

4mydogs

I went through arbitration with Toyota over a sunroof leak on my '86 MR-2 and lost. Consult a lawyer!

obscurotron

First off, I would advise against listening to most of the responders here.

I've been through arbitration with Toyota over a transmission (8/2003) and won. I'm not an attorney, and you don't need one to win.

First, organize all your paperwork - repair orders, rental car receipts, any other paperwork showing a trail of you trying to get Toyota to fix the problem. You will probably need copies of your title and/or registration as well. Make sure you have several sets of copies of all your documentation.

Then get your arbitration process started by filing the proper forms and including all the required information. Follow the instructions to the letter - don't give them any grounds to reject your claim.

After you send off your paperwork, you'll have to wait for the arbitrator to contact you. Don't waste this time. Find a law student or someone else with free access to Lexis or Westlaw and look up lemon law court cases specific to YOUR state. Read the cases (they actually are not hard to understand and the summary notes make them even easier to understand). Get the basic point of 1) the complaint and 2) the resolution. Make note of these, especially if any of the problems match YOUR problem in some way. Obviously you only want to use cases in which the customer was a winner.

When a date for arbitration is set, I suggest a phone meeting rather than an in-person. That way no one can try to personally intimidate you. Lay out your complaint in a clear, complete and concise manner. After doing that, then use all that court case info you got and say "And in X v. Y, where the car had Z problem, the court ruled in favor of the buyer because of A, B and C. My problem is similar to this, so it would be reasonable to say a court would also rule in my favor on this matter." Hit them with that 4 or 5 times, really hard. Finish with "Now I really want to avoid unnecessary cost and delay to myself and to Toyota, so what I want done is <insert your REASONABLE demand here> or the vehicle bought back."

What you end up doing is showing them that 1) you won't be pushed around, 2) you show the arbitrator that this is a dead serious matter and that you can wade your way around the legalities, 3) that you *can* win in court (which costs Toyota far more than a repair or buyback) and that you aren't afraid to go there *if you must*.

If you get ANY indication that the arbitrator is being unfair or siding with Toyota, make a note of it in writing, ask the arbitrator (politely) if you understood his seemingly-biased comment correctly, etc. then appeal to the arbitration organization for a *neutral* arbiter, to which you are legally entitled under the terms of the arbitration agreement (you paid for this service - it's basically figured into the cost of each Toyota vehicle).

Then you have to sit and wait for a decision. That took about 2 weeks in my case. Also, unless the arbitration terms state otherwise, arbitration for lemon law cases is generally NOT binding on the customer, but IS binding on the manufacturer. You do NOT generally give up your right to sue unless you agree to what is called "binding" arbitration. In the automotive realm, binding arbitration is not common (binding to the customer). Then if you win what you want from Toyota, they have a certain amount of time to perform (90 days, often). If they don't perform, you can go back to the arbitrator and demand Toyota be made to perform. If Toyota still refuses, then court will be required. But note, judges do NOT like it when a manufacturer is bound in arbitration to an act and then refuses to perform as promised.

You can win. And you can do it without massive costs in terms of time and money. If you need details, etc, hit me offline.

-e

knocking 4runner

E, I have e-mailed you off line.

Gadget

Yea, well that will work with a problem that is very clear and there is no question what is wrong, like a truck that can not drive down the road because the tranny is busted.

It is not likely going to work in cases like piston slap where there are experts that will say that it does not create a real problem and it does not shorten the life cycle of the engine.

It will work were there is a clear thing that can be demonstrated and prevents the use of the vehicle like say, failing to start. If it can't start, it can't drive, and if it can't drive then it is no good to the customer.

It is not likely going to work for say, a noise, that may be annoying, may not be liked by the customer, but some industry EXPERT for Toyota will sit there under oath and swear that it is NORMAL and it does not indicate that there is anything really wrong with the vehicle.

There are things that are slam dunks at arbitration and you really wonder why it even gets that far without Toyota stepping up and doing the right thing, but there are lots of things that are not so clear. Noises, rattles, VIBRATIONS, and so on are not so clear. When the arbitrator hears what your complaint is and then hears one or two EXPERT witnesses from Toyota, that start off with a long list of qualifications and decades of experience that qualifies them as an expert, tell the arbtrator that nothing is wrong with your truck, well then, take a wild ass guess where that is going to go.

Gather all the info you can and make a decission on how to proceed. I wish you all the luck in the world. The final tip I have for you is that if you feel that you are loosing, you can explain to the arbitrator that you understand that he may not be a car expert and this mechanical stuff might be kind of hard for the lay person to understand, but maybe it would be a good idea if the BBB has one of their independant experts examine the vehicle and render an opinion. That right there was the whammy that set that evil witch that represents Toyota through the roof because she knew right there that she was going to LOOSE and I was ready to pull that wild card out and lay it on the table. It worked.

Remember you are the one bringing the complaint and you are the one that has to prove it, not Toyota.

Gadget

obscurotron

My tranny issue was exactly that - a noise. And not an easily or clearly indicative noise of a particular type of failure, i.e. no mechanic, Toyota or otherwise, was able to listen and say "For sure it is X bearing". This was in a 2003 5 speed.

In fact the MAJOR premise of my argument to the arbitrator was "Suppose I wanted to sell this truck right now. Do you think a reasonably prudent person would, after hearing that noise, buy this truck? No. And there goes my paid-for value in the vehicle." And yes, I won. And no, I'm not some expert who has been giving testimony in court for 20 years, or anything like that.

Also at my arbitration, there was one technical person from Toyota there, with double-digit years as a mechanic, etc. What helped was the line of questioning. I.e. "If this is normal, fine. What *is* it *exactly*". When the "it may be X, Y or Z" came out all I had to say was "See? That's even more reason why I'm right and they're wrong. They have ideas, but no concrete information and they've had the truck 4 times for ths problem now. After 4 times, someone with 15 years of experience can't figure it out? Something is very wrong."

It's all in how you play their own game with them and plan out your moves ahead of time.

There was another guy here...I think his screen name was 'Edge'. He had a noise issue with his 4th Gen 4Runner and he got a buyback out of it. He and I are both proof that it can and will be done.

knocking 4runner

I am sending in the arbitration paperwork tomorrow, wish me luck!

knocking 4runner

Well looks like I am out of luck. I received my paperwork back from Toyota and because I am not the original owner, I can not arbitrate against them with the toyota dealership. I have talked with the dealership again, with no luck. They just keep saying it is a trait of the vehicle even though it is getting louder. I guess my only option at this point is to get an atty, but at this point I don't know what good that would do.

Gadget

What you really need to do is find out exactly what if anything is truely wrong with your truck.

Gadget

knocking 4runner

Easier said than done. I have taken it in 4 times to the toyota dealership and 1 other time to a different dealership. They have replaced the harmonic balancer, air compressor, oiled the bearings, replaced the water pump and timing chain. They will not do anything else to it because it is "normal". Any suggestions?

AgRunner06

Exactly. Any decent mechanic should be able to locate where the noise is coming from. They make mechanic's stethoscopes for exactly this reason.

You need to take it to an independent mechanic (preferably one that specializes in Toyotas) and have him agree that something isn't right. Then pay him to figure out what the problem is. Most dealerships are against the customer so you should just go somewhere else.

BLKNBLU

iTrader: (1)

If Toyota replaced all those parts to fix the "problem" but it did not, you now have a whole seperate issue with them. Did they say "this is the problem" or just that while checking the truck they also found these items to be worn and "might be the problem" and then got you to agree to the repair? I agree with AgRunner06. Find an independent mechanic and when they present you with a diagnosis, ask them "will this fix my problem?"

aowRS

I hope you get to the bottom of this and find a resolution.

All internal engine bearings are oiled as the engine runs - by design. What bearings did they claim to "oil"?

If you have the 3.4 V6, you have a timing belt, not a chain. I did not see your original post, so I'm not sure what engine you have.

Andreas

Sac State

and then you write a Magna Carta reply?