Cebby

OK, to further this discussion (civilized discussion ), are there oversized pistons available for the 3.0 Camry motor? When doing the rebuild, why not go whole hog? (Assuming the costs aren't astronomical)

It's been said there is no substitute for cubic inches...

Dan_90SR5

Weasy2k- That comment makes no sense though. The 3VZ-FE and 5VZ-FE heads are the same. Neither is larger than the other. If he mean the -E head versus the -FE head........yes it is larger, BUT yes it does flow better. That's the reason for the HP increase between the two engines.

It just makes me mad that he is implying the changing heads can change an engine displacement. Changing heads on engines is done for two reasons. To increase engine efficency and/or compression ratio.

Cylinder volume equation:

V=pi x radius(squared) x height (wish I could have put that in here better)

(87.5 x 82.0)
3VZ-E and 3VZ-FE displacement comes to 2958.496cc by my calculations, while Toyotas calculations are 2954cc (3.0L).

(93.5 x 82.0)
5VZ-FE displacement comes to 3378.144cc.....Toyota 3378cc (3.4L)

I have no way to figure out the volume of the dome in the head without having it off the engine, in hand and some good tools to measure liquid. That's not needed though because you can see by the calculations which you are all welcome to do on your own that displacement is the amount of area that is displaced but the pistons stroke multiplied by the number of cylinders.

Once again, I've been to school for this and want to get the proper information out there rather than the half truths and BS. To further confirm back my post other than me rambling and saying that I'm right, here is the exact definition from Webster's website (www.m-w.com)

Displacemnt: c : the volume displaced by a piston (as in a pump or an engine) in a single stroke; also : the total volume so displaced by all the pistons in an internal combustion engine (as in an automobile)


Cebby-Just to answer your comment real fast. You could try to do that, but I can't see where Toyota came up with the room to do it. For that matter you can pick up a 5VZ-FE block for $200......then work with my list of parts and use the 3VZ-E ECU. Like I said before, the ECU has no idea what the mechanical parts of the engine are doing. It just reads what the sensors tell it. You'll have to use the mechanical distributor from the Camry so there would be no problems. That my friend is actually the cheapest way to do the 3.4L swap. Screw finding a low milage 3.4L engine........by all the parts seperate or find a great deal on a high milage engine. Rebuild it with overbore pistons, use the Camry distributor, and 3VZ-E wiring harness, ECU and sensors. The only problem will be the sensors which I'll have figured out when I'm done.

Now everyone will have 3 options. The tradition 3.4L swap.....the most expensive, the 3.4L swap my way, and the 3.0L head swap. I should open my own shop after this and offer these swaps myself. Who knows........I might just build my own kits. How would plug and play 3.0L and 3.4L swaps sound to everyone?

Weasy2k

Ok good work...sorry just want civlized convos here no ˟˟˟˟ wrecking

good info and i will not challenge you on anything as well you know mroe then me....im enrolle din a performance cylender head rebuilding course so i hope to learn alot from it.

tulsa_97SR5

Dan, hope you don't think this off topic or hijacking, but have you seen this article from the sept pop-sci magazine?

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/futurec...679464,00.html

I don't know nearly enough about toyota heads to know if this could work with what you're doing, but thought it was a very interesting read.

Goldrunner

Dan, I think plug and play swaps would be very sought after by us Yotatechers, especially with you here to guide us.

Toysrme

Whoa you guys turned that ugly in heartbeat LoL! I'm just stating what I know and what I do...

In no orderly fashion:
You couldn't go over 100hp. You could get close to 90hp *if you* are good tuning and porting...

From my understanding:
3vz-e has 145hp
3vz-fe has 185hp
Swap the heads and now your original 3vz-e is a 3vz-fe making 3vz-fe 185hp and 195lb/ft of torque.
There's 40hp.

Get another 40hp from easy mods the main gain being a port and polish job.
We ('92-'93 Camry owners) see 30-40hp gains with a full port and polish job... Reshaping and smoothing from the TB through the intake air chamber, ACIS valve & fitting reshapement, Runner and intake manifold cleaning/smoothing. (Clean from the injectors down, but do not smooth)
Porting the heads... Reshaping the chamber dividers, short-side radious and smoothing the valve seal suport. (carefully!)


Dan_90SR5 you just wrote a long post discribing displacement for no reason.
Not to be mean, or condicending in any way. I love what you're doing! But why are you calling me out? You havn't read my posts against the thread to see the answers, and what experiance do you have with a 3vz-fe engine? None. You 3vz-e guys are the lucky ones. We don't even have a set of headers for our Camrys. Then again who spends $700 to get a 5-10hp gain?

You may think I'm full of BS, but I know *my* stuff, and atleast I can read a thread. (Just joking keep it civil!)

Toysrme

I think you missed the fact that every time I talked about larger displacement I was reffering to making a hybrid 5vz/3vz. What I would do if I was lucky enough to have a 5vz is make a hybrid 5vz/3vz, and turbo it.

Dan_90SR5

Great article. However it doesn't show what he did to the cylinders or cylinder head. Hot Rod owners have been trying to perfect this theory for years. As you can see in one of the pictures in that article, it shows the hearts shaped combustion chambers on one of the heads. That is what most Hot Rod heads look like. This is the most efficient design that we have come to know here in the states on domestic engines. Hemi, chose to use a hemispherical head design with the spark plug dead center in the top of the head.........hmmmm.....doesn't that sound like a familiar design? Yeah, Toyota uses the same design on all of it's DOHC engines.

I see the one head with the star burst pattern machined into it, but don't think that's the final design. I can imagine that it's similar. I honestly think that I know exactly what he did on the final design, but who knows without seeing it.

This would be a good idea for my Celica when I start working on it, but for this head swap, not knowing exactly what needs to be done it's not really an option. I have to get this engine done so I can start driving it again. Which by the way, the machine shop is still not done with my engine.......pissing me off.

But again, great article. I read another one about a year ago and emailed the company to get more info. They have a great concept too, but it's a whole engine and they have backing. Maybe I can figure the head design of the article you sent me on a model airplane engine, weed wacker or lawn mower. We have a few of each laying around here.

Dan_90SR5

I totally understand your thinking and you just might not have as mush time wrenching on Toyotas as I do. And I'll be honest, this is my first Toyota V6 that I've worked on, so I'm learning more about this engine family as I go. What I can tell you though it that the 3VZ-FE and 5VZ-FE share the same head. I'm using valve covers from a 5VZ-FE on my 3VZ-FE heads if that offers up some proof for people. Worked out best for me since I got them dirt cheap.

I guess what I'm getting at is that there is no hybrid availible other than what I explained to Cebby about using the Camry mechanical ignition system versus the direct fire. The engines are the same other than the cylinder bore. Can you overbore the 3VZ block out that large?? I have no idea.....I'd guess so, but I'd have to see the 5VZ block with heads removed to be 100% sure. I will not try this even if I wasn't as far along as I am right now. On thing that you have to remember with the engine families is that they do make slight changes to the block mold over time. They might have different jacket water passages is the 3VZ versus 5VZ even though the blocks look the same.

I think that I answered your comment though. I hope the class goes well. That would definately be a cool class to take and learn more about. Maybe you'll learn more about "quench", which is what I've always known it as.......or "squish" from what that article posted above calls it. Maybe you should ask about it for us......if you figured it out like that Indian guy and learned the art or porting, you could be a pretty lethal engine builder some day.

Toysrme

Cebby there are no 3vz-fe Camry piston *kits* per say. You have to find them from other toyota engines. The only 3vz-fe I know with custom pistons (in the middle of a twin turbo project) did it this way. I don't know the engine he found them for.

Whoa that is an interesting article. The patent he filed describes it a little to. Makes me think about trying something similar since I'm porting now anyways.

Dan_90SR5

I'd say that they're probably 3S-GTE oversized pistons. They make them up to 87.5mm which is what a 3VZ-FE mics out to. I think that Cebby meant why not try to bore the 3VZ block out to 93.5mm, the bore of the 5VZ....or am I totally lost here? If the 3S-GTE pistons worked, they would be awesome for a supercharger or turbo set-up. The only problem is on a N/A engine, they would suck. I think they're 8.5:1 or 8.7:1CR......I have to find them again to be for sure.

Cebby

That's what I'm getting at. Why stop at the 5VZ bore? Dan, do you have your short block there? How many thou over can we safely go? There have to be other piston that will work.

How does the new V6 get to 4.0? Is it a combo of bore AND stroke, or just bigger bore?

Another thought - Is the valve layout on the DOHC I6 Supra motors match up with pistons on the V6's? There have got to be big pistons available for all those built 2J's out there.

Dan_90SR5

I'll tell you the truth, I have no idea about the new 4.0L V6. If I knew the engine code I might be able to research it or have a clue.

I'd have to have a 5VZ-FE engine broken down or at least some good pictures to tell. The best that I could say with just a guess would be maybe you could use a 1MZ-FE crank (83mm stroke) and 3RZ-FE pistons (95mm bore), but at best that would only give you a 3.5L engine.

The 2JZ isn't an option......it's a square engine just like the 3S-GTE (86 x 86) The biggest pistons that I know of for each is 87.5mm.

Maybe some more research into the new engine would give us some answers. Does anyone have a 4.0L engine that can get me an engine code? I'd be more than happy to do some research if someone took on a better project than the one that I'm working on.

Praufet

theres more to finding big pistons than just finding another v6 or i6, you need to make sure the wrist pins are similar too, I bet the 2jz would be too big for the 3vz rods, cause that motor is built to be a beast. There are other factors as well, but I'm too tired to cover them.

Cebby

Please return when you are better rested....

Dan_90SR5

You are 100% correct that there is more to just finding big pistons. But you are wrong about the 2JZ pistons. They're the same as the little 3S-GTE.......yes it's a performance engine too. However, they are the same size as the 5S-FE, an engine that most thought was a weak POS until I argued the fact and then found a company that uses 5S cranks to stroke 3S engines for alot cheaper than JUN was doing it. I almost bet that they are the same size as the 3VZ-e, 3VZ-FE, 5VZ-FE and 1MZ-FE, after having seen 3S, 5S and 3VZ engines aparts. For that matter, that look pretty similar to R series wrist pins. That is questionable though after looking up some specs on the R series engines.

But I will say that you are definately right. I was looking at possiblities in a perfect world, but still not worth the time or money to gain 0.1L.

Give of some more feedback thoug if you have man. Any correct info is more than welcome.

Toysrme

*Now* I am talking out of personal experiance. There are also very few 3vz-fe hard core tuners. However, from what I have been told, even tho the 3vz block is iron, it wouldn't bore out 1.5mm safely.

Since you guys are talking about the rods to now, they need to be changed. they won't handle a 350hp engine.



After further investigation I'm going to try what I think Singh’s final design is on this R/C head. It's a 2-stroke glow engine 0.46ci displacement. It's a custom race engine, one of 300 built in China and will not be built again due to licensing to force the design off the market. (It was way to powerful and cheaper than most competitors by a good amount)

I'll test power and fuel economy via a baseline run with a tach and timing fuel consumption off a 2oz tank. Putting what I think a similar/good design would be on the head and repeating the test. Yes... It will probably make a noticable increase in displacement on an 0.46ci engine, but it won't change fuel economy...

Praufet

heads don't increase displacement, they only modify compression. the only way to modify displace is to modify bore or stroke, see dan's post on displacement above, back to go pass out

seafarinman

This is definitely an interesting thread. I am reading hungrily waiting for that magic resolution to my 3.0 dilemma. So if it is possible to install the 5VZ-E heads on the 3VZ-E, would it be possible to install the headers for those heads? I guess that would be a problem for the guys with the pre-taco and pre 3rd gen 4Runners unless we had the rest of the exhaust fabbed behind the headers. But for now I am stranded out here at sea and I can only look forward to reading about what you guys are doing back stateside until I have to really worry about what I am going to do when I get back.

Dan_90SR5

Alright, in an attempt to answer everyone, I'm posting a responce.

Toysrme- I have my ideas as to what the 3VZ can do for HP on stock internals based on what I've seen other Toyotas do with very similar if not the same internal parts.

You have the same idea that I was thinking of with the model engine. Run it up full bore in stock form and tach it. Then modify it and run it up full bore again. With those engines, if it becomes more efficient, they should run higher RPM.

Praufet- You are the best.....there are a few of you that really know where this project is going and I appreciate the support, even if the project is slow going. Engine is still at the machine shop.

seafarinman- I posted about the headers some time back, you might have missed it, but yes, that is a great plus in my book. Plus the use of the supercharger. I'm unsure about the supercharger though right now. I might be leaning towards a well tuned turbo after being involved in another post about remote turbos. I'm not looking at remote mounting, but the dyno results for the same amount of boost really got me. It's amazing how much power it takes to move that supercharger.