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I had the surging issue and stumped two shops with it. I found the fix on Yotatech - a simple throttle return spring which wasn't stout enough.
Read your entire string in one sitting, sharing some of your grief.
I had a timing chain wear through and trash a motor, (@ 290K on the clock), had bad 'help' from a machine shop, bought better-than-Toyota parts which weren't, and been without my ride for way too long. But in the end it's worth it. Keep at it, you will get through it and have fun.
My daily driver keeps wandering off into fun places on those daily drives - the long way home, the unknown dirt roads, mud puddles and snow banks, etc..
I had the surging issue and stumped two shops with it. I found the fix on Yotatech - a simple throttle return spring which wasn't stout enough.
Read your entire string in one sitting, sharing some of your grief.
I had a timing chain wear through and trash a motor, (@ 290K on the clock), had bad 'help' from a machine shop, bought better-than-Toyota parts which weren't, and been without my ride for way too long. But in the end it's worth it. Keep at it, you will get through it and have fun.
My daily driver keeps wandering off into fun places on those daily drives - the long way home, the unknown dirt roads, mud puddles and snow banks, etc..
Hi Berferd,
Are you talking about the spring wound around the throttle flap stud opposite the TPS on the Throttle Body (don't know the technical term)? I noticed that there is a place for another throttle return spring on the opposite side of the actual cam that the throttle cable goes into, but I just figured that was for an earlier generation TB setup and it wasn't used on the later models. I have an '86 that actually uses linkage instead of a cable there, so it might have all gotten ironed out in later generations of that whole system.
Thanks for the comments....moping around less now, just want to get her done right and back on the road.
Really contemplating putting the rings in myself, or taking it to another (totally different) shop. I may even just go with standard rings as I'm way over budget on this project already.
Just found out I don't have to come in for work over the weekend, and tracked down a solid 4 Ton engine hoist for a fair price that I'll be picking up tonight.
Going to swing by and pick up some hones, ring compressors and some ring pliers at lunch. Ready to get in there and open her up to see how bad the internal bleeding actually is.
Got the engine pulled....just have to break it down and see what all needs to be fixed.
I noticed that the oil I had noticed dripping originally from the transmission / engine joint, was actually brown instead of purple (royal purple break in oil in motor), and more than likely coming from the tranny instead of the motor - but we'll get to that issue sometime later.
couldn't physically lift the motor onto my porch, or get it inside the house, and I feel like it's going to be a pretty messy job anyway, so I put it on a stand in front of the rig and bagged it because it looked like we may have rain this week. I'll strip the accessories and other components where it sits, and get it all broken down and cleaned so I can move it inside.
I ordered a super fancy Brush Research "dingleberry" hone in 240 grit to get the smoothest cross hatch pattern possible. I figured I'm about to do that other motor as well and could justify the cost split across the two.
Use of so fine of a hone is not generally best to facilitate ring break-in.
It is the sharp edges of the cross-hatch that 'cut' the new rings in.
If these sharp edges are not sufficient, or they wear smooth too soon, the rings will not seat and the engine will use excessive oil from the getgo.
Better to use a grit in the 200-300 range. It is my experience that even 400 grit is too fine to work well, much less 600.
Whatever ring seating there is, happens in the first hundred miles, or less.
I have built dozens of engines and honed them all with coarse hones.
Not one has ever been an oil pumper.
but have any of those been using gapless rings with a diamond finish less than 4 microinches?
I have the standard stone hone and glaze breaker, but when going with a much higher quality finish on the gapless rings, I was told to up the finish on the cylinder wall as well, because the coarser finish will indeed wear into the rings and possibly ruin them. Apparently gapless is a whole different beast....some people like it, some people don't.
the thought process behind it was less blow by further down the road, better vacuum, better hp, torque, etc. Yes it's a little more difficult to set up and get right, but I've read a lot on them and decided to go that direction for longevity and less blowby.
However, doubt you read the whole thread, but the reason i'm pulling it again is because the machine shop didn't put them in correctly and after 0 miles, they're screwed up. Unlike a lot of standard rings, they have to go in a certain order, only one ring is gapless (1st or second), and they are directional (have to be installed with the dot facing up). The Machine shop i used put it on the back burner for 5 months and rushed it finished....guessing they installed them incorrectly as I have less than 2 miles on the motor and am getting massive oil in the intake and exhaust.
now the fun part is seeing if they have in fact damaged the cylinder walls more than a little honing can fix.
Many times, racing development has brought forth innovations that have made ordinary street cars more powerful and at the same time, more reliable.
Not all racing mods fit the bill however. I did'nt find any info on the net that would indicate that any car manufacturers use this type ring, even in their high performance factory engine offerings.
Seems like most of the claims of extended life and higher performance come from the ring makers themselves.
Maybe there is an advantage to gapless rings in racing engines that are run to their ultimate power limits, but their finicky break-in and spotty hit and miss reputation in ordinary service, would put me off them for sure. Why try and reinvent the wheel when conventional parts work so well.
You are already suffering from gapless ring troubles, whatever the cause was.
We can only hope that your second go round is more successful.
Ha....I suppose so, but what i'm really suffering from is a machine shop that rushed everything through (they also did all the milling work to the wrong head).
valid points, I'll look into going back with stock rings.
I know nothing of them. Hope that they work out for you.
I don't think I would ever consider putting something exotic like that in so mundane an engine as a 22re.
They have proved plenty tough just as the factory made them.
Decided to take Millball's advice and exchanged the 600 grit flexhone for a 320. Will probably end up going with standard rings. I'm doubting the machine shop used a torque plate when doing the initial bore and hone and it seems this might be another hurdle for the gapless.
Plus, now that i'm trying to fix all of this in my gravel driveway with minimal tools, it just seems like the best way to go.
Well I got the motor broken down to the shortblock yesterday after work and was surprised to find that the cylinder walls are perfect. I didn't see any visible cracks in the rings, but noticed a ton of charring in the chamber, so there's oil coming in from somewhere. I'm guessing the seals, but cant be sure, which would be much cheaper and less of a pain than tearing down the whole engine. Because it was the local mechanics that told me it was probably the rings, I decided to load up the motor and take it back down to them so they could tell me for certain what is causing the oil to get into the chamber. Remember this motor has maybe 2-3 miles on it and about 20 - 30 minutes aggregate of idling, so these chambers shouldn't be anywhere near this grimy.
Here's a shot of each cylinder (up and down) and the corresponding chambers for reference. I spilt some oil and coolant down a couple of the chambers when I was removing the head, so please disregard that as a potential issue.
#1 Cylinder up
#2 Cylinder down
#3 Cylinder down
#4 Cylinder Up
#1 Chamber
#2 Chamber
#3 Chamber
#4 Chamber
#1 Cylinder down
#2 Cylinder Up
#3 Cylinder Up
#4 Cylinder Down
Getting Creative loading up the engine to take it into the shop
last time I took this into the shop, they had to use a forklift and some straps to make a cradle to unload it. I decided just to take the cherry picker in with me. It only took me 15 minutes to unload the whole thing by myself.
If that engine only has 2 or three miles on it, you did'nt give it a chance.
It needed to be accellerated hard up to 4000-4500rpm in first gear and then decellerated by engine braking, still in first gear, about 15 or 20 times to seat the rings, any kind of rings.
Then driven moderately for a couple hundred miles before making any judgement about oil pumping.
If that engine only has 2 or three miles on it, you did'nt give it a chance.
It needed to be accellerated hard up to 4000-4500rpm in first gear and then decellerated by engine braking, still in first gear, about 15 or 20 times to seat the rings, any kind of rings.
Then driven moderately for a couple hundred miles before making any judgement about oil pumping.
I think you jumped the gun.
Hi Millball,
I understand and have read all about ring seating procedures and would normally agree. However, there was definitely something wrong with the motor and oil getting into the cylinders and it wasn't running well enough to go out and put those kinds of forces on the engine to properly seat the rings.
Based solely on the amount of caked up carbon and the amount of bluish black smoke that was coming out of the exhaust, it is obvious that oil was getting into the chambers, and I'm growing more and more skeptical that the rings are at fault. I think the oil pressure was set far too high, the valve train was being literally flooded with oil, and it was seeping in through the seals. Another situation would be the head gasket, but when I took it apart, there didn't appear to be any breeches so it's unlikely.
My mechanic is on vacation, but gets back into town this weekend, so I'll have a discussion with him about it. I'm hoping they did a compression test on each cylinder the last time I was there that could also help determine what the issue might be.
I understand there will be a little bit of oil consumption in the initial break in and seating of the rings, but this was over a quart in 20-30 minutes of idling, and the motor would bog down with any load. I was simply told by the only guy I'll let work on the motor (the one that adjusted the valves and set the timing) that it was likely the rings. Now that the motor is down at their shop, we might get to the bottom of the issue.
The last thing I wanted to do was start this engine's life off knowing something was off, and although some might think I've jumped the gun....I've got too much time and $ invested into this to leave anything up to doubt or chance.
The shop confirmed it was the rings, and we've got some sunny weather coming up, so I'm going to get that shortblock torn all the way down this weekend.
I have that other Turbo block I was going to re-ring anyway, so I will probably just do them both at the same time.
Ready to get some forward progress on this project and get my car back running on a daily basis
Gorgeous weekend. Had a lazy Saturday, but got up early Sunday and took the motor down to a shop I'm a member of (501-3-C monthly membership for space and tool usage) because I knew this was going to get pretty messy.
Got the block torn down and the rods and pistons removed. I left the crank in place and made sure to label everything to it's corresponding cylinder and even lightly scratched the cylinder numbers into the top of the parts with a scribe (marker wears off in the parts washer solution I was using).
Ordering rings for this and the turbo block today. I'll probably go ahead and tear the other block down as well, just in case it has H-beam rods or anything else I want to steal out of it. I'll also need to order a new Head gasket for this motor and a full rebuild gasket set for the turbo. (I have pretty much a full set of gaskets at the house already for the current one).
The cylinder walls were almost mirrors and didn't have any scratches or gouges that would have given me any concern. The dingleberry hone worked great and put an almost perfect crosshatch pattern on the cylinder walls at 320 grit.
All in all, I should be able to get the Standard rings in, gap them properly, and start the reassembly.
Here's some images of the crosshatch after the honing....
02-23-2015, 03:09 PM
