ChefYota4x4's 1987 4Runner Build-Up Thread
03-23-2011, 08:48 PM
#1801
Registered User
as far as the cam goes, it looks beautiful. just broken in. piston slap is sort of a slang term for too much piston-to-wall clearance. basically, if the bore is too big for the piston, the piston skirt can rock/rattle/slap against the bore and cause some disheartening noise. put your stethescope on the upper portion of the block just under the head gasket and see if it is louder there. of course if you plan on puting it back together again and not tearing it down further.
Per Alldata Pro - Piston Clearance (Bottom of Skirt) .0008-.0016 in
that is measured at the bottom of the skirt 90 degrees to the wrist pin in comparison to the bore size in the same direction. hope that helps. but of course you have to remove the piston(s) to measure this.
Per Alldata Pro - Piston Clearance (Bottom of Skirt) .0008-.0016 in
that is measured at the bottom of the skirt 90 degrees to the wrist pin in comparison to the bore size in the same direction. hope that helps. but of course you have to remove the piston(s) to measure this.
03-23-2011, 08:59 PM
#1802
Great info, Truckman... Yeah, if it came to that level of investigation, I'd have NO CHOICE but to just get a Putney's Long block or something. I just can't spend the time, especially with a HUGE season of work approaching for me. "DANG THAT MEAT POPSICLE WHO DID MY MOTOR!!" .... Oh, ....yeah, ....that's what I call what I formerly referred to as "My Machinist", hahaha. However, ....I might change my mind and just rebuild the whole thing myself, OUT OF PRINCIPLE, and rent a pick up for a week! lol. We'll see.
I know what you mean, and that makes perfect sense... and I'm NOT SAYING that's not the case. I'm only saying that from all the investigating and some info I'll post in the next post... I think it's at LEAST likely to be something else going on here....
I know what you mean, and that makes perfect sense... and I'm NOT SAYING that's not the case. I'm only saying that from all the investigating and some info I'll post in the next post... I think it's at LEAST likely to be something else going on here....
03-23-2011, 09:56 PM
#1803
TALKED TO TOD/engnbldr TODAY FOR 45MIN! Great guy!!!
I was just telling him a quick bullet point of what's going on.... and he suddenly became very curious..... He's helped me through some other things, MANY actually, and he talked over this issue with me, quite a bit.
First thing he said it might be was either Rod Bearings or Wrist Pin issues. He then seemed to steer away from this with the hearing the symptoms of "hearing a LOT MORE NOISE through the rear/driver side stud". He also thought it very telling that "I still have a slight miss, even with the new CAM, and will most likely have it with the new adjuster screws as well. This leads toward the things that were DEFINITELY reused,.....namely, "THE ROCKER ASSEMBLY". He did think the adjusters should be replaced, but stated they didn't look TOO dramatically bad, especially to cause such a "TICK". But, he stated, "Definitely replace them, because even though the valve tips seem to look like the 'hardened tips' type... eventually, these adjusters, as they get worse, WILL cause damage to the valve tips...... and then, it's 'pull the head time' for sure."
He really thinks it's likely that the rear rocker/s on that side could be causing that noise that I hear INSIDE the Valve cover, by listening with the stethoscope. Even the ticking could be related to a combination of the adjusters, but more leaning toward the rockers, especially if the guy didn't get the "SPECS RIGHT" on the rockers-roller tips, etc. EVEN MORE SO, if the guy didn't change out rockers that were showing too much 'PLAY'....this causes a delay in the contact between the relationship of the cam lobe and valve tip...leaving an up to, sometimes, .003 gap, once heated up and slapping away. This would also cause the valve not to open at the right time(too soon, not soon enough, not long enough, too long, etc.)...and wouldn't really show any major performance issues, as a "BENT OR STICKING OR IMPROPERLY GAUGED VALVE LENGTH MOST CERTAINLY WOULD".
When I mentioned that my timing jumps back and forth from 5* to 8*BTDC, slightly erratically, .....this REALLY got an "Ohhhhhhhh, Hmmmmmmmmm" out of him! I'm sure I might misquote EXACTLY some of what he said, so I'll just put that disclaimer down, now! lol. However, it seemed as if he was saying, "Jumping 1 degree or something, that's normal...but 3*, at least??? See, when the rockers are not working properly, ...IF you have this type of play, due to improper machining, etc., .....it CAN AND DOES show up in the timing, because your getting to those rear lobes and there is play, thus, the timing chain, two different gears and the CAM are playing catch up, every revolution of the motor. Sometimes it will skip a beat, and it will appear more erratic, like your symptoms."
Long and short, ....
"Considering that my compression, at least the last time I checked, is around 168-172 across the board, and that the noise didn't seem to correspond with the signs of that...that seems to rule out piston slap(caused by improper bore or piston gap--???--- lol) Could be I still have some Rod Bearing issues, but he doubted that, especially since I hear NOTHING abnormal from the bottom when listening with a stethoscope to the oil pan, all the way across."
"Considering that I'm not burning any oil, that seems to rule out a burned or bent valve, along with the fact that under any load I seem to have full power, but still hear all that racket through the valve cover stud in the rear/driver side. I think the compression was part of that, too, but I don't want to misquote him any more than I might have, already! lol."
"Combining the miss, the poorly wearing adjusters(which he said he'd seen 200K adjusters come out that looked better....but that they still didn't look like ones that MANDATED pulling the head and swapping out valves)...combining those and the jumping timing, and that the miss isn't there, AT ALL, when cruising at 35 in 4th, 45 in 3rd, whatever, when holding ANY idle under load, .....it really seems more rocker assembly related to him than anything else."
He did say that I might still have an exhaust leak. That,"Even with a BRAND NEW HEADERS, I've seen warpage right out the box. Not only that, but you could have a spot that the header or header gasket(yes, even the remflex) can't mask/suffocate/seal. He told me that the rear exhaust port stud on the bottom joins with an EGR Passage, and that has fooled MANY people, for years, to the point that they just give up trying to solve it. I could put the stock manifold back on, but that would involve a pretty big cost and, well, I really felt a decent gain with it,especially in the top end. But if it's got to go, HECK YES, AT THIS POINT, I'LL PULL IT! lol. My mani had a few leaks along the seam that I found when doing a Seafoam treatment. My downpipe too. So, I'd most likely have to start over, not to mention my new CAT is a 2.25 High Flow Magnaflow... I wonder how changing back to 1.75-2.0" would effect my system? (Ted seems to feel very strongly that the stock exhaust and 2.0 pipe to the Muffller, then 2.25 out the back(basically, stock) is the way to go for the 'most gain' ).
************************************************** ***********
So, while I would love to just put the adjusters in and go...I'm trying to decide if I should just BE CERTAIN, AT LEAST on the rocker assembly and----- strap down the head, pull the rocker assembly and either.......
A.) Get a complete OEM, mildly modified Rocker assembly from Puntey's(22reperformance.com) ... 229$
or....
B.) Take mine into a RESPECTED machine shop and have them rebuild/toss the yucky ones, check the shafts, etc. .....???$ hahaha.
I don't think I'm gonna have a choice at this point, as even if I put the adjusters in and the ticking stopped... if I hear that MUCH LOUDER commotion from the rear v-cover stud, I'd end up having to pull the assembly anyhow.....
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! lol. Anyway, I feel I learned quite a bit today and I DEFINITELY feel better, having spoken to Tod! Isn't it true that the "wondering" is one of the worse things to have to deal with? haha.
I was just telling him a quick bullet point of what's going on.... and he suddenly became very curious..... He's helped me through some other things, MANY actually, and he talked over this issue with me, quite a bit.
First thing he said it might be was either Rod Bearings or Wrist Pin issues. He then seemed to steer away from this with the hearing the symptoms of "hearing a LOT MORE NOISE through the rear/driver side stud". He also thought it very telling that "I still have a slight miss, even with the new CAM, and will most likely have it with the new adjuster screws as well. This leads toward the things that were DEFINITELY reused,.....namely, "THE ROCKER ASSEMBLY". He did think the adjusters should be replaced, but stated they didn't look TOO dramatically bad, especially to cause such a "TICK". But, he stated, "Definitely replace them, because even though the valve tips seem to look like the 'hardened tips' type... eventually, these adjusters, as they get worse, WILL cause damage to the valve tips...... and then, it's 'pull the head time' for sure."
He really thinks it's likely that the rear rocker/s on that side could be causing that noise that I hear INSIDE the Valve cover, by listening with the stethoscope. Even the ticking could be related to a combination of the adjusters, but more leaning toward the rockers, especially if the guy didn't get the "SPECS RIGHT" on the rockers-roller tips, etc. EVEN MORE SO, if the guy didn't change out rockers that were showing too much 'PLAY'....this causes a delay in the contact between the relationship of the cam lobe and valve tip...leaving an up to, sometimes, .003 gap, once heated up and slapping away. This would also cause the valve not to open at the right time(too soon, not soon enough, not long enough, too long, etc.)...and wouldn't really show any major performance issues, as a "BENT OR STICKING OR IMPROPERLY GAUGED VALVE LENGTH MOST CERTAINLY WOULD".
When I mentioned that my timing jumps back and forth from 5* to 8*BTDC, slightly erratically, .....this REALLY got an "Ohhhhhhhh, Hmmmmmmmmm" out of him! I'm sure I might misquote EXACTLY some of what he said, so I'll just put that disclaimer down, now! lol. However, it seemed as if he was saying, "Jumping 1 degree or something, that's normal...but 3*, at least??? See, when the rockers are not working properly, ...IF you have this type of play, due to improper machining, etc., .....it CAN AND DOES show up in the timing, because your getting to those rear lobes and there is play, thus, the timing chain, two different gears and the CAM are playing catch up, every revolution of the motor. Sometimes it will skip a beat, and it will appear more erratic, like your symptoms."
Long and short, ....
"Considering that my compression, at least the last time I checked, is around 168-172 across the board, and that the noise didn't seem to correspond with the signs of that...that seems to rule out piston slap(caused by improper bore or piston gap--???--- lol) Could be I still have some Rod Bearing issues, but he doubted that, especially since I hear NOTHING abnormal from the bottom when listening with a stethoscope to the oil pan, all the way across."
"Considering that I'm not burning any oil, that seems to rule out a burned or bent valve, along with the fact that under any load I seem to have full power, but still hear all that racket through the valve cover stud in the rear/driver side. I think the compression was part of that, too, but I don't want to misquote him any more than I might have, already! lol."
"Combining the miss, the poorly wearing adjusters(which he said he'd seen 200K adjusters come out that looked better....but that they still didn't look like ones that MANDATED pulling the head and swapping out valves)...combining those and the jumping timing, and that the miss isn't there, AT ALL, when cruising at 35 in 4th, 45 in 3rd, whatever, when holding ANY idle under load, .....it really seems more rocker assembly related to him than anything else."
He did say that I might still have an exhaust leak. That,"Even with a BRAND NEW HEADERS, I've seen warpage right out the box. Not only that, but you could have a spot that the header or header gasket(yes, even the remflex) can't mask/suffocate/seal. He told me that the rear exhaust port stud on the bottom joins with an EGR Passage, and that has fooled MANY people, for years, to the point that they just give up trying to solve it. I could put the stock manifold back on, but that would involve a pretty big cost and, well, I really felt a decent gain with it,especially in the top end. But if it's got to go, HECK YES, AT THIS POINT, I'LL PULL IT! lol. My mani had a few leaks along the seam that I found when doing a Seafoam treatment. My downpipe too. So, I'd most likely have to start over, not to mention my new CAT is a 2.25 High Flow Magnaflow... I wonder how changing back to 1.75-2.0" would effect my system? (Ted seems to feel very strongly that the stock exhaust and 2.0 pipe to the Muffller, then 2.25 out the back(basically, stock) is the way to go for the 'most gain' ).
************************************************** ***********
So, while I would love to just put the adjusters in and go...I'm trying to decide if I should just BE CERTAIN, AT LEAST on the rocker assembly and----- strap down the head, pull the rocker assembly and either.......
A.) Get a complete OEM, mildly modified Rocker assembly from Puntey's(22reperformance.com) ... 229$
or....
B.) Take mine into a RESPECTED machine shop and have them rebuild/toss the yucky ones, check the shafts, etc. .....???$ hahaha.
I don't think I'm gonna have a choice at this point, as even if I put the adjusters in and the ticking stopped... if I hear that MUCH LOUDER commotion from the rear v-cover stud, I'd end up having to pull the assembly anyhow.....
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! lol. Anyway, I feel I learned quite a bit today and I DEFINITELY feel better, having spoken to Tod! Isn't it true that the "wondering" is one of the worse things to have to deal with? haha.
03-23-2011, 11:08 PM
#1804
PS> Email from Ted, just so I properly represent, lol; I asked him if he still disliked headers compared to stock?
"No, headers are OK but I prefer the Tri-y as best.
One trick, usually with a header you need a bit more spark lead which will act slightly as leaning out.
Ted"
Hmmmmmm, ....well, too late for that, eh? hahaha. I might drag him over here to throw out his latest opinion on the "best exhaust system for the 22re"... As I've been told by Putney's, and others, "The LCE Header is really nice, especially on Highway trips, etc. ....but the 02 being so far back has been known to cause "RICH" conditions that throw off the ECU and can kill mileage, during 'city' conditions. MANY have claimed GREAT differences by throwing a heated 02 system in, leaving it where it is on the LCE Pipe going to the CAT."
Too rich isn't great, but I guess rich means "Less chance of blowing the motor as soon as a really LEAN condition would", right? lol.
I'm very curious about this and assume that there HAS to be some definitive info on "what's best" for "what application". Tri-y, from what I've read, is best for Crawling and lower end torque, where the LCE 4-1 is better for Mid to High range RPM output. I'll read up and post some, in case anyone is interested. I know, it's ALL OVER the net, including here. But MAN is that a 'LOADED WITH DIFFERING OPINIONS' topic, yeah? lol.
"No, headers are OK but I prefer the Tri-y as best.
One trick, usually with a header you need a bit more spark lead which will act slightly as leaning out.
Ted"
Hmmmmmm, ....well, too late for that, eh? hahaha. I might drag him over here to throw out his latest opinion on the "best exhaust system for the 22re"... As I've been told by Putney's, and others, "The LCE Header is really nice, especially on Highway trips, etc. ....but the 02 being so far back has been known to cause "RICH" conditions that throw off the ECU and can kill mileage, during 'city' conditions. MANY have claimed GREAT differences by throwing a heated 02 system in, leaving it where it is on the LCE Pipe going to the CAT."
Too rich isn't great, but I guess rich means "Less chance of blowing the motor as soon as a really LEAN condition would", right? lol.
I'm very curious about this and assume that there HAS to be some definitive info on "what's best" for "what application". Tri-y, from what I've read, is best for Crawling and lower end torque, where the LCE 4-1 is better for Mid to High range RPM output. I'll read up and post some, in case anyone is interested. I know, it's ALL OVER the net, including here. But MAN is that a 'LOADED WITH DIFFERING OPINIONS' topic, yeah? lol.
03-24-2011, 02:15 AM
#1806
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chef, Been following your thread for a long time. Lots of diagnostic here, and really good stuff.
I bought a 94 pick up with LCE short block, stock head over built with over sized valve, dual springs, header etc. It had a very loud tick/knock from the rear exhaust side of the head. Come to find out it was a flat cam lobe. The PO had did all that work then put a set of $5 rockers on it. A pad had come off the rocker and ate threw the cam lobe. I had a Enbldr stock head with 268 cam here for another build. And a rocker stock rocker assembly from a pick and pull, that "looked" good, so I threw that one the engine. It was very noisy from the valves and I had always wandered if I should have used that rocker assembly without sending it out to a machine shop.
This past weekend I got rid of the header, installed a new stock exhaust manifold, new down pipe, Thunderbolt cat $79, flow sound muffler(china flow master knock off) and bent up a new tail pipe. All the exhaust pipe is 2".
The valves are very, very quite now. I also had a slight miss that I could not get rid off. It is gone now.
This little truck has 4.88 front and rear. With the new exhaust on there it runs 250 rpms less at 60 mph.
All the exhaust is welded on. New cheapo gaskets at the head and down pipe.
I say put your adjusters back together, put a new exhaust on it, and see what happens from there.
Good luck
I bought a 94 pick up with LCE short block, stock head over built with over sized valve, dual springs, header etc. It had a very loud tick/knock from the rear exhaust side of the head. Come to find out it was a flat cam lobe. The PO had did all that work then put a set of $5 rockers on it. A pad had come off the rocker and ate threw the cam lobe. I had a Enbldr stock head with 268 cam here for another build. And a rocker stock rocker assembly from a pick and pull, that "looked" good, so I threw that one the engine. It was very noisy from the valves and I had always wandered if I should have used that rocker assembly without sending it out to a machine shop.
This past weekend I got rid of the header, installed a new stock exhaust manifold, new down pipe, Thunderbolt cat $79, flow sound muffler(china flow master knock off) and bent up a new tail pipe. All the exhaust pipe is 2".
The valves are very, very quite now. I also had a slight miss that I could not get rid off. It is gone now.
This little truck has 4.88 front and rear. With the new exhaust on there it runs 250 rpms less at 60 mph.
All the exhaust is welded on. New cheapo gaskets at the head and down pipe.
I say put your adjusters back together, put a new exhaust on it, and see what happens from there.
Good luck
03-24-2011, 02:42 AM
#1807
YotaTech Milestone-Two Millionth Post
wow Mark.....just caught myself up again here.
you take beautiful pictures.
you seem just like my wife in that when you find something wrong, you just won't let it go. ever. But seriously, I admire your stick-to-it-tiveness. I still want to remind you to read the quote in your sig....LOL....but I know why you are doing this, because you want to enjoy this motor for a long time to come. BRAVO to you for your determination, but mostly for keeping us all informed (and, many times making us quite hungry) and wish you lots of luck.
you take beautiful pictures.
you seem just like my wife in that when you find something wrong, you just won't let it go. ever. But seriously, I admire your stick-to-it-tiveness. I still want to remind you to read the quote in your sig....LOL....but I know why you are doing this, because you want to enjoy this motor for a long time to come. BRAVO to you for your determination, but mostly for keeping us all informed (and, many times making us quite hungry) and wish you lots of luck.
03-24-2011, 06:38 AM
#1808
Registered User
chef, piston slap does not necessarily correspond with a loss of compression or a miss. the rings can seal great, but the skirt would be slapping back and forth. EVEN ON A NEW MOTOR.
My advise/opinion - check the rockers for play on the shaft by wiggling the cam end and the valve end on the shaft. if you feel play, roughness, clicking, tapping or anything but a smooth rocker with no rocker to shaft play then i would recommend replacing that one. if you don't find anything there, check your cam thrust and see if you also have any play towards the rear of the head in the cam journals. you shouldn't be able to move it at all (you might have to do this carefully but forcefully with a prybar lifting up and pushing down). if you don't find anything there, put it back together, adjust your valves at .008" in and .012" ex and start listening to noises in the top area of the block. i have seen it too many times (i used to do failure analysis/quality control dept. at a major engine rebuilder [and yes we did 22R-E's]) where something as simple as a bore to piston gap out of spec and we have to warranty it. even in the warranty claims, it would explain how the engine ran great. I just want to see you not lump them all together and see the problems as individual problems. (the mind of a mechanic)
Happy hunting!
My advise/opinion - check the rockers for play on the shaft by wiggling the cam end and the valve end on the shaft. if you feel play, roughness, clicking, tapping or anything but a smooth rocker with no rocker to shaft play then i would recommend replacing that one. if you don't find anything there, check your cam thrust and see if you also have any play towards the rear of the head in the cam journals. you shouldn't be able to move it at all (you might have to do this carefully but forcefully with a prybar lifting up and pushing down). if you don't find anything there, put it back together, adjust your valves at .008" in and .012" ex and start listening to noises in the top area of the block. i have seen it too many times (i used to do failure analysis/quality control dept. at a major engine rebuilder [and yes we did 22R-E's]) where something as simple as a bore to piston gap out of spec and we have to warranty it. even in the warranty claims, it would explain how the engine ran great. I just want to see you not lump them all together and see the problems as individual problems. (the mind of a mechanic)
Happy hunting!
Last edited by truckman1966; 03-24-2011 at 06:40 AM.
03-24-2011, 07:52 AM
#1809
Registered User
Is the tic annnoying enough to think that far into it? I would just drive it and have a blast with it. Unless the tic is causing some damage to your components. Good luck.
03-24-2011, 08:48 AM
#1810
Chef, Been following your thread for a long time. Lots of diagnostic here, and really good stuff.
I bought a 94 pick up with LCE short block, stock head over built with over sized valve, dual springs, header etc. It had a very loud tick/knock from the rear exhaust side of the head. Come to find out it was a flat cam lobe. The PO had did all that work then put a set of $5 rockers on it. A pad had come off the rocker and ate threw the cam lobe. I had a Enbldr stock head with 268 cam here for another build. And a rocker stock rocker assembly from a pick and pull, that "looked" good, so I threw that one the engine. It was very noisy from the valves and I had always wandered if I should have used that rocker assembly without sending it out to a machine shop.
This past weekend I got rid of the header, installed a new stock exhaust manifold, new down pipe, Thunderbolt cat $79, flow sound muffler(china flow master knock off) and bent up a new tail pipe. All the exhaust pipe is 2".
The valves are very, very quite now. I also had a slight miss that I could not get rid off. It is gone now.
This little truck has 4.88 front and rear. With the new exhaust on there it runs 250 rpms less at 60 mph.
All the exhaust is welded on. New cheapo gaskets at the head and down pipe.
I say put your adjusters back together, put a new exhaust on it, and see what happens from there.
Good luck
I bought a 94 pick up with LCE short block, stock head over built with over sized valve, dual springs, header etc. It had a very loud tick/knock from the rear exhaust side of the head. Come to find out it was a flat cam lobe. The PO had did all that work then put a set of $5 rockers on it. A pad had come off the rocker and ate threw the cam lobe. I had a Enbldr stock head with 268 cam here for another build. And a rocker stock rocker assembly from a pick and pull, that "looked" good, so I threw that one the engine. It was very noisy from the valves and I had always wandered if I should have used that rocker assembly without sending it out to a machine shop.
This past weekend I got rid of the header, installed a new stock exhaust manifold, new down pipe, Thunderbolt cat $79, flow sound muffler(china flow master knock off) and bent up a new tail pipe. All the exhaust pipe is 2".
The valves are very, very quite now. I also had a slight miss that I could not get rid off. It is gone now.
This little truck has 4.88 front and rear. With the new exhaust on there it runs 250 rpms less at 60 mph.
All the exhaust is welded on. New cheapo gaskets at the head and down pipe.
I say put your adjusters back together, put a new exhaust on it, and see what happens from there.
Good luck
wow Mark.....just caught myself up again here.
you take beautiful pictures.
you seem just like my wife in that when you find something wrong, you just won't let it go. ever. But seriously, I admire your stick-to-it-tiveness. I still want to remind you to read the quote in your sig....LOL....but I know why you are doing this, because you want to enjoy this motor for a long time to come. BRAVO to you for your determination, but mostly for keeping us all informed (and, many times making us quite hungry) and wish you lots of luck.
you take beautiful pictures.
you seem just like my wife in that when you find something wrong, you just won't let it go. ever. But seriously, I admire your stick-to-it-tiveness. I still want to remind you to read the quote in your sig....LOL....but I know why you are doing this, because you want to enjoy this motor for a long time to come. BRAVO to you for your determination, but mostly for keeping us all informed (and, many times making us quite hungry) and wish you lots of luck.
chef, piston slap does not necessarily correspond with a loss of compression or a miss. the rings can seal great, but the skirt would be slapping back and forth. EVEN ON A NEW MOTOR.
My advise/opinion - check the rockers for play on the shaft by wiggling the cam end and the valve end on the shaft. if you feel play, roughness, clicking, tapping or anything but a smooth rocker with no rocker to shaft play then i would recommend replacing that one. if you don't find anything there, check your cam thrust and see if you also have any play towards the rear of the head in the cam journals. you shouldn't be able to move it at all (you might have to do this carefully but forcefully with a prybar lifting up and pushing down). if you don't find anything there, put it back together, adjust your valves at .008" in and .012" ex and start listening to noises in the top area of the block. i have seen it too many times (i used to do failure analysis/quality control dept. at a major engine rebuilder [and yes we did 22R-E's]) where something as simple as a bore to piston gap out of spec and we have to warranty it. even in the warranty claims, it would explain how the engine ran great. I just want to see you not lump them all together and see the problems as individual problems. (the mind of a mechanic)
Happy hunting!
My advise/opinion - check the rockers for play on the shaft by wiggling the cam end and the valve end on the shaft. if you feel play, roughness, clicking, tapping or anything but a smooth rocker with no rocker to shaft play then i would recommend replacing that one. if you don't find anything there, check your cam thrust and see if you also have any play towards the rear of the head in the cam journals. you shouldn't be able to move it at all (you might have to do this carefully but forcefully with a prybar lifting up and pushing down). if you don't find anything there, put it back together, adjust your valves at .008" in and .012" ex and start listening to noises in the top area of the block. i have seen it too many times (i used to do failure analysis/quality control dept. at a major engine rebuilder [and yes we did 22R-E's]) where something as simple as a bore to piston gap out of spec and we have to warranty it. even in the warranty claims, it would explain how the engine ran great. I just want to see you not lump them all together and see the problems as individual problems. (the mind of a mechanic)
Happy hunting!
*******************************************
I'm pretty much decided that I'm going to AT LEAST pull the rocker assembly and have it checked out by a reputable machinist. Japanese Auto Center(guy helped me a LOT) has a couple that he deals with, and I'll go with one of them. At least then, I can verify/rule out the rocker assembly as having an issue, right? It's a bit more risk w/out pulling the head, etc., but I think it's the most logical long term plan. If the shafts are the issue, etc., I'll go from there, and at least I'll have NEW ADJUSTERS and NUTS to slap in there, whether I get it back with a "NOPE, the rocker assembly is fine" or not, eh? hahaha. They need to check the rocker roller-tip heights, play in the shafts, etc., right? So, does that sound like a logical first step? Putney's said I could just send the whole set to him and he'd help me out, too... maybe that would be better?
Last edited by ChefYota4x4; 03-24-2011 at 08:51 AM.
03-24-2011, 08:54 AM
#1811
Registered User
why not just put the new adjusters in there and see if it goes away? I don't get it man. $30 in which you have to do anyway with very little extra work.
03-24-2011, 08:55 AM
#1812
It's very annoying, Z, but I SWEAR TO YOU, it's not NEARLY as much about the "TICK" as it is, ..."what is causing this, and why are my adjusters looking worse than most that Tod and Ted take out after 200K motors are torn down?" if I let them wear on, they'd DEFINITELY cause damage to the valve tips, eventually(PROBABLY QUICKLY, and they might have already, according to Tod and Ted and other machinist/builders), see what I mean? I had the miss it has for 25k BEFORE I rebuilt it... so it's not as if I can't ''learn to live with irregularities", ya know? You're gonna build that motor I saw, right? You get it in, you run it for 2500 miles, and then more importantly than the miss or tick, ...you listen in to the rocker assembly/valves through the cover studs, and you hear a VERY LOUD RACKET, compared to all the other studs... you wouldn't investigate and solve it before it possibly screws up your brand newly rebuilt motor?
03-24-2011, 08:58 AM
#1813
Registered User
Mark, I understand your frusteration with the tick and by no means think that you should just ignore it. You are justified in my eyes to be concerned, I think that your lack of confidence in the machiniest who built your motor has you very worried. Swap out the adjusters and see what happens.
Last edited by yotarob2005; 03-24-2011 at 08:59 AM.
03-24-2011, 09:01 AM
#1814
I HEAR YA, and I don't WANT to do more work than I have to, trust me, please? lol. I just wonder if it's more "LOGICAL" to try and catch something now, if the "motor guys" think it's unlikely to be the adjusters. ??? Don't mean to be a worry wart or anything, B, ..I just actually, to the contrary, want to be done with this, once and for all, ya know?
Last edited by ChefYota4x4; 03-24-2011 at 09:04 AM.
03-24-2011, 09:12 AM
#1815
Registered User
Did they also mention how hard it would be to get an accurate valve lash measurement with the adjusters looking like that? ie a 11 measurement could in reality be a 14 etc etc. Too big of a lash can also cause a miss cus the valve isn't opening at the correct time, too late to be exact.
For the same reason is why long duration cams especially high lift ones have idle lope.
For the same reason is why long duration cams especially high lift ones have idle lope.
Last edited by xxxtreme22r; 03-24-2011 at 09:13 AM.
03-24-2011, 09:16 AM
#1816
I also figured, while I'm waiting for 5 more days on my hands, why not 'find out what I can', ....
Alright, well, my neighbor broker her wrist, poor lil old lady... I'm taking her to the Hospital now to have x-rays, etc.
Thanks alot, guys, I appreciate you helping out, your input, etc., etc.!
And Rob, you're RIGHT ON, I am VERY unsure of what this guy did, and this is the only rig I have, and my money tree is not endless... I just wanted to figure out W/T/HELL is wrong, once and for all, with my newly rebuild motor. lol.
Be back in a few hours, probably.... thanks again, everyone. Hope that some of what I've found might help someone to pinpoint an issue one day.
Alright, well, my neighbor broker her wrist, poor lil old lady... I'm taking her to the Hospital now to have x-rays, etc.
Thanks alot, guys, I appreciate you helping out, your input, etc., etc.!
And Rob, you're RIGHT ON, I am VERY unsure of what this guy did, and this is the only rig I have, and my money tree is not endless... I just wanted to figure out W/T/HELL is wrong, once and for all, with my newly rebuild motor. lol.
Be back in a few hours, probably.... thanks again, everyone. Hope that some of what I've found might help someone to pinpoint an issue one day.
03-24-2011, 09:22 AM
#1817
Did they also mention how hard it would be to get an accurate valve lash measurement with the adjusters looking like that? ie a 11 measurement could in reality be a 14 etc etc. Too big of a lash can also cause a miss cus the valve isn't opening at the correct time, too late to be exact.
For the same reason is why long duration cams especially high lift ones have idle lope.
For the same reason is why long duration cams especially high lift ones have idle lope.
Something is not right, for sure, ....and I HOPE, TRUST ME, that it's just the adjusters. We'll find out tomorrow, UNLESS USPS DROPS ME OFF SUMPIN SUMPIN FROM LCE TODAY! lol.
******************************************
PS> Got my package from dealerdirectparts.com today, .....
AC Drier, CHECK!
Sway bar bushings, CHECK!
That's good, right? hahah.
03-24-2011, 09:26 AM
#1818
PS> Brandon, THANK YOU for the levity, ...I'm nothing but thankful for your input. Just to answer very clearly, "Yep, ...I get it on the 11 vs. the 14" issue that might be happening. He explained that very clearly. Also, I wanted to add that Tod told me the recommended "go back in after new adjusters" rate of mileage is "500 miles". So I'll slap em in and keep a close ear for anything CRAZY, lol.
Have a GREAT day, I'm off to the WONDERFUL HOSPITAL! YAYYYYY! lol.
Have a GREAT day, I'm off to the WONDERFUL HOSPITAL! YAYYYYY! lol.
03-24-2011, 01:40 PM
#1819
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: SE PA.
Posts: 348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok ,I just booked my truck a flight out to visit the chef.There is a small oil leak after rebuild and I am sure he will find much more to fix . I want to thank you in advance Mark and feel free to fill the truck with some of you great dishes when you send her back.
Ha Ha guys my truck will be as nice as the chef's
Ha Ha guys my truck will be as nice as the chef's
03-24-2011, 02:37 PM
#1820
Hahahaha.....ha...oh............(sigh). lol.
Hey man, c'monnn, hahaha...from oil pouring out my timing cover, to the cam looking like a bunch of gremlins with hammers had a FIGHT CLUB day in there, to the couple BURIED coolant elbow fitting leaks that this guy caused...OH YEAH, putting in a plastic timing chain kit and keeping my LCE one? I think SOME of my curiosity and concern is warranted, no? haha. But in short, YES, PLEASE, stop on by with yer rig and we'll put a Radial Plane Motor in there, ...whatcha say? hahaha. OH yeah, and then you can fly IT back home and I'll be sure to load it up with plenty of good grub before TAKE OFF! hahaha.
Hope all is well, Mike... have a good'n! And btw, DON'T FORGET to hit me up if YOU DO in fact hit Los Angeles for some reason, k? lol. ANYONE, FOR THAT MATTER........(mumbles under breath, "except that one guy from Arkansas") hahaha. Jk...don't know anyone on here from Arkansas, ......at least I think? lol.
Ok, have a couple videos to post, mostly on the AC...brb, lol.
Hey man, c'monnn, hahaha...from oil pouring out my timing cover, to the cam looking like a bunch of gremlins with hammers had a FIGHT CLUB day in there, to the couple BURIED coolant elbow fitting leaks that this guy caused...OH YEAH, putting in a plastic timing chain kit and keeping my LCE one? I think SOME of my curiosity and concern is warranted, no? haha. But in short, YES, PLEASE, stop on by with yer rig and we'll put a Radial Plane Motor in there, ...whatcha say? hahaha. OH yeah, and then you can fly IT back home and I'll be sure to load it up with plenty of good grub before TAKE OFF! hahaha.
Hope all is well, Mike... have a good'n!
And btw, DON'T FORGET to hit me up if YOU DO in fact hit Los Angeles for some reason, k? lol. ANYONE, FOR THAT MATTER........(mumbles under breath, "except that one guy from Arkansas") hahaha. Jk...don't know anyone on here from Arkansas, ......at least I think? lol. Ok, have a couple videos to post, mostly on the AC...brb, lol.
