ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Dude, RAD, ... you're an "A-CLASS BUDDY" !!!!!!

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OK, now this is VERY complicated, so stay with me..... but first, I'll just say, "THE WINDOW WORKS!" ....

NOW; On to how(PLEASE, just read through this next sentence... it's VERY intense with technical data... but well worth the read>>>> :

I BANGED IN A DIFFERENT PLACE AND IT WORKED AGAIN!

hehehehe.....

IN ALL SERIOUSNESS.... what is causing this?

What happened, I think, is;

* When I have the seats folded up like this in the back...... I was reaching back and banging in a different spot... This time, I opened the sliding first window on the shell, reached down, WACK, .... "VOILA", window worked again! ..........WTH? LOL.

* OBVIOUSLY the Rear Window Relay Module is 'TROUBLED', would be my guess. I will try a spare I have... BUT, I'm curious if anyone knows what goes wrong with these that causes this? Is there something inside, similar to a 'POLE THROW' mechanism, that get's 'close but not making it to contact to complete the circuit? Then, when rapping on the panel(wherein I can HEARRRRRR the module rattling).... the contact is tripped and it works again?

* When this 'rapping' is needed, NEITHER METHOD WORKS; "Rear Window Switch SPDT Rocker in Console"/"Rear Window Key Operation Switch"

* Should I open up a spare I have and take a look? I've noticed this is a VERY common problem... and 90% of the time, when people have asked me, "MY WINDOW WONT WORK!".... and after they've Multi Metered and tested every circuit to death, .... I've said, "RAP ON THE PANEL JUST OVER THE RELAY".... and it worked again. NOTHING else worked! lol. I wanna solve this problem, FOR GOOD!

* The fact that those panel to body weld beads are open, letting moisture out, BUT ALSO IN, leads me to believe that, like with my C.O.R., where a leaking windshield had caused enough corrosion to DESTROY the COR.... maybe the window relays back there go through the same deal???????

RAD4Runner

Yep. Most likely some old-fashioned mechanical relays are inside the module. Like most contacts, moisture in them could hasten corrosion. In fact the deck lamp switch you sent me had high resistance, too. I poured alcohol into switch, rocked it back and forth several times, rechecked resistance til I saw 0.2 ohms.
Don't open your window relay, yet until you're absolutely sure it's the problem. Try the spare ones and monitor for for a couple of weeks first.
When absolutely sure, go ahead open it. I'm guessing it's similar to seat-belt/key in ignition/light remind module with a tiny relay inside.

RAD4Runner

Forgot to ask if wiper works. If it does, then either Window section of window relay module or window motor itself. Can check that, too later. Will send details if this is suspect.

If wiper does not work, either, could be power to module OR window position sensors. If relay/control module does not think window is fully up, it will not operate wiper or window.

Cyberhorn The Dragon

my fender was a semi gloss black

ya know what mark while youve got the panels off make sure of all grounds take um off clean the metal under put it back spritz with paint or electrical sealer (ive used battery terminal sealer)

cant hurt and could actually improve current flow to the motors an lights

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

* Wiper works and has NEVER failed to work when I've engaged it

* Window has never failed to work due to the Wiper Cancel Switch or Door Lock Switch or other safety features having a 'GLITCH'.... IT ONLY fails to work due to, from what I can tell, the Rear Window Relay Module.

* ANY TIME the Rear Window was failing to work(aside from accidentally having the window lock engaged or wiper not all the way up or rear gate open) .... it has always began working again after SMACKING the panel/effectively giving that Rear Window Relay Module a good rattle

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Question; Is that Rear Window Relay Module 'Ground' in any way by the mounting screws? Or is it a common switched ground like I showed in that picture, on the chassis, that grounds that module(or the Kick Panel Fuse Block Common Ground?) I don't think it is.... it seems when I removed them from those PYPart rigs that they slide into dimple slots(like the buzzer under the dash) and the screws are just held in by 'Speed Nuts'.

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I will heed your advice and try swapping out a module first. Clean out the contacts really well, first... etc. Terry told me that those relay modules are a COMMON 'WANTED' item... So apparently they DO screw up. I'm betting it's internal corrosion like my COR.. but I'll try to not open one up just yet, haha.

I WILL, that's a good idea. Believe it or not, that ground I showed in the pic is PRISTINE... No corrosion, etc. But CAN'T hurt. And, I have a big applicator bottle of 'Dielectric Grease' to hit everything with after good cleaning.

* QUESTION #2; Is that ground I showed the picture of the main ground for the chassis on that section of the rig? Here's the pic again.....>



* QUESTION #3; What should I do with those dangling Speaker Wires/wire connectors just below that ground pic?>>>

Cyberhorn The Dragon

anything bolted to body metal is a ground so thats one of um

id wrap each with electrical tape (prevent any issues) an a single wrap around the main harness to hold them still behind the panel safe from moisture or banging around

RAD4Runner

Agree. Each time I touch a chassis ground point, I sand down to bare metal. This way ring terminal makes direct contact with sheet metal and does not rely on contact from ring terminal to coated (possibly corroded) screw, to thread, to sheet metal. I coat interface with conductive grease (when we meet-up, remind me to bring some


Yep, If you trace white wire with black stripe back to connector at driver's kick panel, I'm pretty sure they all tap into the thicker wht-blk stripe wire. However, they also all connect to chassis.

OK, yep, so you got power to relay module and wiper section. Must be window section of module. Would be nice to see what it looks like inside.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hey RAD, ....

I'll be running some wiring and all that tomorrow for my REAR LIGHT EXTRAVAGANZA FESTIVAL OF LIGHTS PARADE.........THINGY, hahaha. Jk, you know what I mean. SO, I will yank my original window module out and swap in that other one. IF I find any corrosion in the pins on the wiring connector side... I'll address that as well. Anyway, what was getting at was this. IF the new module works flawlessly for a while, and granting I don't see something when pulling mine that leads to an "OHHHHH, duhhhhhhhhhhhh!" moment, lol.... I'll take it apart(the original) and we'll have a EE inspection party, k? hahaha. You're right... I should NOT play with that like it was 'the buzzer mod', lol... That's a MUCH simpler mechanism than the window module... And things do break quite easily on these old buckets, lol.

RAD, I gotta tell ya... that Frost King Stuff? WOW, ... I mean, I can literally lay my face on the panel with it in full sun for HOURS! Sure, I can feel SOMETHING, but I'm tellin ya... it's NIGHT AND DAY! THANKS! And the THUD front even the outside... HOLY CRAPULA! Seriously, RAD, .... remind me to do a video(audio more importantly) of that difference, before I panel the other side. NO VIBRATION CARRY ON... it's literally a 'dull thud'... whereas the passenger side with nothing is like 'BONGGGGGGGGGGGGGG', lol.

Thanks again for taking the time to help me understand a few things that you clearly already had learned..... and being patient with me about it, to boot! VERY kind, sir! ....I'm Grateful

RAD4Runner

Cyberhorn The Dragon

well mark dodge tried using that spray foam to fill the holow areas to help with the empty can sound starting in 2002 an stopped in 2008 it was a great insulator an light BUT the foam soaked up road salt an water rotting out any metal it was against (which why i warned ya about it)

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

I have 2 small jumper wires that I connect the window motor to real quick to see if the motor is at fualt. Most likely it isnt the motor but one of them safetys, which I bypass completely.

On my 88 Runner build on post 185 or 186, I have a link to how to rebuild them relay boxes. I have never done it but it is cheap and supposed to be alot better. Dont throw the relay box away if it is at fault, you can always keep it as a spare. No guarantee that the other box you have is good as well.

RAD4Runner

Good idea to test the motor.
Could also be safety interlocks but not likely 'cause wiper works.

BTW, Terry, planning to use Permatex Rust Converter on little area under my clutch master cyl, near pedal. Wud u recommend that or Rustoleum or POR? OK to use auto paint on top of them??

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hey Dragon..... I didn't use any Spray foam.... What do ya mean? Are you saying that the Duct Insulation Foil Backed Foam is not a good idea? The foam under there is stickybacked closed cell type foam(plus, it's adhesive completely covering the outermost portion of it)... You've got me concerned, could you explain? Thanks, man

Hey buddy... I'll look at that 'rebuild' mod.... I think it'd be worth it, rebuilding one of my spares, then using it as a guinea pig, ya think? Far as the culprit....I'm just 90% sure that the Relay Module back there is the best suspect. I mean, .... NOTHING I do gets it working again.... Then often, a slight TAP on the panel.... and VOILA, it's working. When I tap it, I can hear the module 'rattling'....

HOWEVER, I have to think that the tailgate is a likely suspect for problems for many.... Because, after all, it takes A BEATING, VERY OFTEN, each time it's closed.. Funny... I've tried to always load my groceries and such without opening the tailgate. I did it because I thought it would protect the glass and maybe bushings in there(which I guess it doesn't really have, lol)... but you get the point. 90% of the time, I don't open the gate. ONLY to get in and work in there or load larger/heavier things, ya know?

Usually, when it stops working...... it's just after driving down the road, stopping, and then going to open it to get something out. Well, after a few raps, it frees something up and allows me to roll it down. This has me thinking..... Could it be getting really hot(like something is sticking open, like my COR was doing when corroded?)... And then the module just heats up til it temporarily fails to allow the 'throw' to come back where it needs to be to complete the circuit?????

Redeth005

Damn dude. Just read throught the last page. This stuff sounds so freekin confusing. All this electrical talk makes me wish i would have learned more when i was in that electrical training institute before the contruction business took a fall. I'm sure reading scematics(hope i spelled that right) and understanding voltage and ohms would come easy if i had finished the whole apprenticeship.

Cyberhorn The Dragon

your fine mark
i was just explain'n why not to use it though its good for insulation an sound proofing

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

Hello RAD.. Missed your question. I tried the Permatex Rust converter and wasnt impressed with it. Havent tried the POR but know a few that have and really like it. It isnt cheap though. I recently found my clutch master cylinder is leaking a little and need to change mine as well. As far as auto paint, I am not sure how that would work.

Red Wagon

I'm going to need to set aside some time to really go through this thread.

Loads of stuff done.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hey Richard... It's "Schematics",... but don't sweat it, we all know what you meant. That's a common one to misspell. That and Cranial Embolism, which is what this 'Electrical - Schematic Herein Intermediate Training' ( <<< ) does to the cavity, atop my shoulders and neck, when first attempting to ABSORB EACH STEP of said training, therein, for the first time! haha. But honestly? RAD, TERRY, JASON, BRYAN89, THOOK, RBX, IRAB/IAN, ROGER/4CRAWLER, ..... ETC., ETC., .... all have helped me to understand this stuff much better.... And I STILL hardly have a grasp! haha. For some, it's math, .. for others it's english..., further still, History seems to be the killer... But electronics, especially with schematics, understanding polarity/switched grounding systems, relays, etc., .... it's like a combination of EVERYTHING, as far as my brain is concerned, hehe. I PROMISE, if possible, I will do a nice, clean, concise write up on a separate thread, including EVERYTHING pertaining to the CARGO MODS, Wiring therein, etc., when finished. For now, I'm kinda just learning as I go and slapping it down as I THINK I've got it...(in a hope that those who FULLY get it will say, "YEP!" or "NOPE, ya bag of hammers-brain..., that's wrong!", )

I still don't understand whether or not you're saying that "This stuff, the one you used, is known to cause problems".... ??? Or were you speaking of specifically the 'expanding foam spray insulation'? I wanna know if it's likely to cause problems, Dragon.... Just lemme have it if so! lol.

Supposedly, the 'Seal' Rubber stuff by Rustoleum is 'paintable', no problem. The guy at Home Depot sprayed on a paint stick for me and we walked around elsewhere, coming back to it... It was REALLY tacky still, 30 minutes later, and did NOT have the prettiest 'look'.. BUT, if it's good for what you need it for, who cares, right RAD? What about "Bed Liner" spray Brand?

HEY MAN! ... how you been? How's the beast running? Glad you stopped in. Yeah, sorry it's a bit all over the place... BUT, seems to have helped a few people, especially when I dig back and show them where something is, hahaha... I REALLY need to some day sit down and start writing down permalink numbers. .... Some day, promise.

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Unfortunately, didn't get ANYTHING done today on the rig. BUT, I did print out all of Bryan89 and RAD and RBX and other notes that I'll need and measured out some wiring that I'll need. Shouldn't take too long to wire it up... The insulation for the other side/with dampening and doors with locks and so forth.. That's gonna be what gets me in the 'time' dept. But s'all good... I'm really pleased with how it's coming out, already. I can't wait for the final result/pay off... I KNOW it will be warmer in there during winter camping trips to the hot springs, Skiing, etc.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

CDN, ... btw, I am REALLY interested in one day doing a roof top camper if I can ever find a 3rd gen 4Runner to fix up for cheap. LOVE those! Corey's set up is one of the reasons I stuck with Yotatech and started my first HOURS on here day, back a couple years ago! hahaha. How's that coming?

PS> There's around 10-12 other threads that were actually pretty informative, too. BUT, most of those are in here as well, haha.

Cyberhorn The Dragon

its the expanding foam stuff

id have to say any tar based stuff would be good for it as the oil base repels water keeps rust from forming as a result