ChefYota4x4's 1987 4Runner Build-Up Thread
05-31-2010, 10:22 AM
#441
hey man sorry for the delay. been lazy on the holiday which is bad considering i have a half tore down sfa underneath my 85 that i need to finish rebuilding, but anyways... yes same problem but the funny thing is mine comes and goes, and whenever its bogging down u can hear the afm "slapping" if that makes sense, but yes when it does do this its runs horrible when cold, doesnt idle, and whenever i am driving it like this i truly have to ease into the throttle until around 2500 rpms or so and then its like im turboed and a bat outta hell... i went with anther afm that i had on a parts truck. but ya truthfully im starting to think its something o2 sensor related, because thats the only thing that would act differently when warmed up, or the tps
05-31-2010, 10:29 AM
#442
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I think I just answered my question which is yes. Follow me on this one (correct me anyone if this don't make sense)
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,ca...BTime%2BSwitch
The cold start injector puts fuel into the intake manifold to help with cold starts (duh). I should operate only under these conditions:
1) When the coolant temperature is below about 100 F.
2) When the engine is being cranked.
The CSI gets it's power from the same place as the starter. That's the reason it works only while the engine is being cranked. It gets a ground from the Thermal Time Switch (TTS). This device does two things:
1) Only allows CSI operation when coolant temp is below appx 100 F.
2) Only allows CSI operation for a max of about 8-10 seconds even if the engine is cranked longer. This is to prevent the engine from being flooded.
The way it does this is the TTS also receives power from the starter. It uses this power to run a little heater inside it. This heater is coiled around a bimetal contact, the same contact that supplies ground to the CSI. For those not familiar with bimetal it's simply two different metals joined together with each having different coefficients of expansion. Bimetal when heated will warp because one metal expands faster than the other. In the TTS this strip moves away from a fixed contact and breaks the ground circuit.
From this we can see the bimetal strip is influenced by both coolant temperature and the (starter circuit powered) heater coil wound around the strip. Which means two conditions can exist:
1) Coolant temp above appx 100 F (hot engine): Bimetal ground contact is open...no CSI operation will occur.
2) Coolant temp below appx 100 F: Bimetal ground contact is closed...CSI operation will occur when the starter is cranked but as the heater warms the contact strip the contacts will open in appx 8-10 seconds. It should be clear that the warmer the coolant is at any given start the more temperature "bias" will already be on the bimetal contact and the less time it wll take the heater to open it and kill the CSI. Again, if the coolant is already above appx 100 F it won't operate at all.
So the CSI can be controlled by the TTS using both temperature and time. Must be why it's called a "Thermal Time Switch" (Toyota I think calls it a "Start Injector Time Switch" but everyone else seems to call it a TTS. These been used to control CSIs for over 25 years).
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,ca...BTime%2BSwitch
The cold start injector puts fuel into the intake manifold to help with cold starts (duh). I should operate only under these conditions:
1) When the coolant temperature is below about 100 F.
2) When the engine is being cranked.
The CSI gets it's power from the same place as the starter. That's the reason it works only while the engine is being cranked. It gets a ground from the Thermal Time Switch (TTS). This device does two things:
1) Only allows CSI operation when coolant temp is below appx 100 F.
2) Only allows CSI operation for a max of about 8-10 seconds even if the engine is cranked longer. This is to prevent the engine from being flooded.
The way it does this is the TTS also receives power from the starter. It uses this power to run a little heater inside it. This heater is coiled around a bimetal contact, the same contact that supplies ground to the CSI. For those not familiar with bimetal it's simply two different metals joined together with each having different coefficients of expansion. Bimetal when heated will warp because one metal expands faster than the other. In the TTS this strip moves away from a fixed contact and breaks the ground circuit.
From this we can see the bimetal strip is influenced by both coolant temperature and the (starter circuit powered) heater coil wound around the strip. Which means two conditions can exist:
1) Coolant temp above appx 100 F (hot engine): Bimetal ground contact is open...no CSI operation will occur.
2) Coolant temp below appx 100 F: Bimetal ground contact is closed...CSI operation will occur when the starter is cranked but as the heater warms the contact strip the contacts will open in appx 8-10 seconds. It should be clear that the warmer the coolant is at any given start the more temperature "bias" will already be on the bimetal contact and the less time it wll take the heater to open it and kill the CSI. Again, if the coolant is already above appx 100 F it won't operate at all.
So the CSI can be controlled by the TTS using both temperature and time. Must be why it's called a "Thermal Time Switch" (Toyota I think calls it a "Start Injector Time Switch" but everyone else seems to call it a TTS. These been used to control CSIs for over 25 years).
05-31-2010, 10:38 AM
#443
So Xxxtreme,
Are you suggesting that it might be the CSI Time Switch(TTS?), ...that for some reason it's not separating when it's supposed to? I think I checked that a while back and posted the readings on another post I'd done.....have to keep looking.
OMGOSH, X, .....FRUSTRATING, ...but I'M NO QUITTER, DON'T WORRY, lol. I appreciate the input, and I'll look at that link in a minute.
Are you suggesting that it might be the CSI Time Switch(TTS?), ...that for some reason it's not separating when it's supposed to? I think I checked that a while back and posted the readings on another post I'd done.....have to keep looking.
OMGOSH, X, .....FRUSTRATING, ...but I'M NO QUITTER, DON'T WORRY, lol. I appreciate the input, and I'll look at that link in a minute.
05-31-2010, 11:10 AM
#444
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Im saying Chef that my 22re is doing the exact same thing as urs. only difference is mine doesnt always do it. just sometimes, and it seems to occur more when the air is cooler and denser, does that make sense?
05-31-2010, 11:22 AM
#445
Hmmm, yes, Crawlin, ....it makes sense.
Mine was intermittent, last year, but since even before I contemplated the build, weeks b4, it began to have this issue 'CONSISTENTLY AND THE SAME, EVERY TIME'.
I also noticed that the weather has something to do with it. I remember washing it one time, then it would hardly run,.....but it ended up NOT having anything to do with that, necessarily, ...it was more just that when I let it sit for a short period of time, the engine temp drops but not enough to get to cold, where it runs PURRRRRFECT! Well, pretty much perfect, lol.
THIS IS REALLY GETTING TO ME!
Xxxtreme,
I DO remember something from my multi-metering. I thought the number was off a bit on that sensor, but when pulling the connector to that CSI time switch during the problem period, it didn't change anything. In other words, I removed the power to it, and it still ran like crap, didn't change anything. However, if that thing is grounded by it's housing, having nothing to do with the power supply, then I'M LOST!LOL
Mine was intermittent, last year, but since even before I contemplated the build, weeks b4, it began to have this issue 'CONSISTENTLY AND THE SAME, EVERY TIME'.
I also noticed that the weather has something to do with it. I remember washing it one time, then it would hardly run,.....but it ended up NOT having anything to do with that, necessarily, ...it was more just that when I let it sit for a short period of time, the engine temp drops but not enough to get to cold, where it runs PURRRRRFECT! Well, pretty much perfect, lol.
THIS IS REALLY GETTING TO ME!
Xxxtreme,
I DO remember something from my multi-metering. I thought the number was off a bit on that sensor, but when pulling the connector to that CSI time switch during the problem period, it didn't change anything. In other words, I removed the power to it, and it still ran like crap, didn't change anything. However, if that thing is grounded by it's housing, having nothing to do with the power supply, then I'M LOST!LOL
05-31-2010, 11:24 AM
#447
Registered User
So Xxxtreme,
Are you suggesting that it might be the CSI Time Switch(TTS?), ...that for some reason it's not separating when it's supposed to? I think I checked that a while back and posted the readings on another post I'd done.....have to keep looking.
OMGOSH, X, .....FRUSTRATING, ...but I'M NO QUITTER, DON'T WORRY, lol. I appreciate the input, and I'll look at that link in a minute.
Are you suggesting that it might be the CSI Time Switch(TTS?), ...that for some reason it's not separating when it's supposed to? I think I checked that a while back and posted the readings on another post I'd done.....have to keep looking.
OMGOSH, X, .....FRUSTRATING, ...but I'M NO QUITTER, DON'T WORRY, lol. I appreciate the input, and I'll look at that link in a minute.
I feel ya man, had the same feeling when I was rebuilding my motor trying to figure out why the heck i didn't have oil pressure. Turned out machine shop forgot to reinstall one of the galley plugs and I had missed it twice.
In my BMW I have been trying to narrow down why I can't get heat to the regular vents and not just the defroster, yet when its not running the whole underside of the dash / center console gets warm. Kinda sucks on 90 degree days, feels like I am driving a stripped down gutted drag car again. lol.
I can't guarantee what I am am finding out by googling etc is the right way to go about it, but it seems as though you have almost tried everything except for changing out that AFM. Any chance you can find one in a junk yard?
Last edited by xxxtreme22r; 05-31-2010 at 11:26 AM.
05-31-2010, 11:47 AM
#448
Hmmmm,
I feel ya man, had the same feeling when I was rebuilding my motor trying to figure out why the heck i didn't have oil pressure. Turned out machine shop forgot to reinstall one of the galley plugs and I had missed it twice.
In my BMW I have been trying to narrow down why I can't get heat to the regular vents and not just the defroster, yet when its not running the whole underside of the dash / center console gets warm. Kinda sucks on 90 degree days, feels like I am driving a stripped down gutted drag car again. lol.
I can't guarantee what I am am finding out by googling etc is the right way to go about it, but it seems as though you have almost tried everything except for changing out that AFM. Any chance you can find one in a junk yard?
In my BMW I have been trying to narrow down why I can't get heat to the regular vents and not just the defroster, yet when its not running the whole underside of the dash / center console gets warm. Kinda sucks on 90 degree days, feels like I am driving a stripped down gutted drag car again. lol.
I can't guarantee what I am am finding out by googling etc is the right way to go about it, but it seems as though you have almost tried everything except for changing out that AFM. Any chance you can find one in a junk yard?
http://www.statracing.com/oem-replac...Air+Mass+Meter
or this...........
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/rafr...k29739-5460938
...BUT I HATE to pay more for something that is NOT NEEDED! DANGIT!
05-31-2010, 11:49 AM
#449
ps> I disconnected the CSI time switch while it was hiccuping, and it didn't change anything, ....is that a decent way to check that time switch, Xxxtreme? I know, you're not the end all know all be all of this stuff, WHO IS? ....but trust me when I say that I'M VERY GRATEFUL for every second you've spent trying to help me with this, and don't worry, I will always cross reference and recheck and get second opinions on everything. I'd never put this all on any one person. UNLESS of course they walk in my garage and say "DOINK, DOINK....THERE YA GO, FIXED", HAHAHAHA.
05-31-2010, 12:44 PM
#451
OK<> update;
NOTHING NEW to tell. But, this is what I've done, today.....
1. Checked the timing cold and warm, set it at 5* with the E1 and T-whatever it was looped. Pulled the 'loop' wires and it just idles up a lil like it always has, nothing major.
2. Pulled the TPS while the problem was occurring, and it idles up a lil(not as much as before, but then the dealer messed with the idle screw and AFM screw a lil), but even though it idles up a lil it still misses and runs like crap.
3. Drove it around the block and down the street, and as usual, it runs pretty darn well after about 30sec to 1 minute of driving....sometimes even less.
4. I noticed that now, even when it's warmed up and running better, it still idles down after sitting at a light or in the garage, parked, running......to about 5hundred rpm's and bogging out, wanting to shake and rattle and roll all over the place! I sat in the garage, fully warm, with it PURRRRRRING for about 5 minutes, then walked out with the camera, turned on the video, and RIGHT THEN AND THERE it started dropping in idle and bogging out/missing. At this point, I'm really lost. I did NOT pull the AFM connector, Xxxtreme, because it was running too rough at this point, so I just killed it. But, I think I covered everything else. HOWEVERRRRRR, I did screw the adjustment screw for the AFM all the way in and it didn't stall or seem to change anything. IS THAT TELLING OF SOMETHING?...or is it just sucking in air enough to keep running normal with that screw all the way in?
At this point, all i know is that it's either;
1. Fuel/Air related
2. Fuel Related
3. Spark Related(??? doubtful but WHO KNOWS at this point)
4. A STUPID SENSOR THAT I CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHICH EFFECTS ALL THREE or one of the three?
Disgusted, but not giving up! lol.
NOTHING NEW to tell. But, this is what I've done, today.....
1. Checked the timing cold and warm, set it at 5* with the E1 and T-whatever it was looped. Pulled the 'loop' wires and it just idles up a lil like it always has, nothing major.
2. Pulled the TPS while the problem was occurring, and it idles up a lil(not as much as before, but then the dealer messed with the idle screw and AFM screw a lil), but even though it idles up a lil it still misses and runs like crap.
3. Drove it around the block and down the street, and as usual, it runs pretty darn well after about 30sec to 1 minute of driving....sometimes even less.
4. I noticed that now, even when it's warmed up and running better, it still idles down after sitting at a light or in the garage, parked, running......to about 5hundred rpm's and bogging out, wanting to shake and rattle and roll all over the place! I sat in the garage, fully warm, with it PURRRRRRING for about 5 minutes, then walked out with the camera, turned on the video, and RIGHT THEN AND THERE it started dropping in idle and bogging out/missing. At this point, I'm really lost. I did NOT pull the AFM connector, Xxxtreme, because it was running too rough at this point, so I just killed it. But, I think I covered everything else. HOWEVERRRRRR, I did screw the adjustment screw for the AFM all the way in and it didn't stall or seem to change anything. IS THAT TELLING OF SOMETHING?...or is it just sucking in air enough to keep running normal with that screw all the way in?
At this point, all i know is that it's either;
1. Fuel/Air related
2. Fuel Related
3. Spark Related(??? doubtful but WHO KNOWS at this point)
4. A STUPID SENSOR THAT I CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHICH EFFECTS ALL THREE or one of the three?
Disgusted, but not giving up! lol.
05-31-2010, 01:45 PM
#452
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ya as u describe ur problem further... i feel as though im reading my own explanations... and surprisingly i have searched and read and read for endless hours, and surprisingly u r the first one to encounter the same thing... i havent had a chance to greatly tear into mine, but something i did figure out, and yes its a lil redneck test, but when its boggin down while driving i tried shutting the ignition down and then turning the key back on all while driving and it correct the problem for a second... def lets me know it is computer/electronic related... can i suggest u try it and see if it does the same for u then maybe between the two of us having identical problems we casn figure it out...
05-31-2010, 01:56 PM
#453
Well, only problem is that when driving, other than the first half minute of driving during the issue.....it clears up fast and then drives fairly well after that. That is, until I sit at a light or park it for a few minutes, then it starts to idle down and bog out again, regardless of how warm it is. So, when would I do this redneck test, if it's not really doing it while driving, except for when just warming up?
Guess I'll try it a few different times and see what happens. Tomorrow is Tuesday, Crawlin, .....and the PARTS DEALERS ARE OPEN AGAIN! So, I'm thinking of finding the nearest warehouse to me from Stat Racing, picking one up there(think it's in L.A., downtown), and swap em out and see if it fixes it. They have a TPS for 120 as well, OEM I believe, ....and I'm thinking of just trying the AFM first, .....because if it doesn't work or fix my problem, I can return it, know what I mean?
Guess I'll try it a few different times and see what happens. Tomorrow is Tuesday, Crawlin, .....and the PARTS DEALERS ARE OPEN AGAIN! So, I'm thinking of finding the nearest warehouse to me from Stat Racing, picking one up there(think it's in L.A., downtown), and swap em out and see if it fixes it. They have a TPS for 120 as well, OEM I believe, ....and I'm thinking of just trying the AFM first, .....because if it doesn't work or fix my problem, I can return it, know what I mean?
05-31-2010, 02:16 PM
#454
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ya i do, andya u could try it while its idling.... mine seems to last longer at times which is what reslted in my redneckin it lol... but i truly am curious as to if it might not be ecu related.... not to frighten u, but ya isd def try the afm first, cuz if anything its replaced and u know for a fact that it isnt the problem, or u could return it too, but thats my 02 cents on it,
05-31-2010, 02:58 PM
#455
Yeah, I guess I'm going to have to at this point, Crawlin, cuz, well, I'm running out of thoughts. I guess it could be the Knock sensor, but that's unlikely compared to the symptoms and THAT AINT CHEAP, EITHER! lol. Could be TPS, AFM , or ANYTHING at this point, and if I can't figure it out, I'LL PAY SOMEONE to! I need my rig back, and I've done my best, ......and by no means am I giving up, but GOOD LORD, send me a nugget? lol
Take care, back to work, I'll bbl8r to check in. THANKS CRAWLIN, X, ya'all!
Take care, back to work, I'll bbl8r to check in. THANKS CRAWLIN, X, ya'all!
05-31-2010, 03:19 PM
#456
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not a problem, ill trade u my motor for urs and see if w cant figure it out lol.... but seriously if u come up with somethin let me know, as soon as im done rebuilding my frt axle and then swapping my rear axle, and dropping and swapping tcases im going to be lookin into fixin the motor problem. i may try swappin out ecu's cuz surprisingly i am pickinup an 85 spare 4runner (dd) and seeing if that fixes it if not then im going to swap out parts until i miracosly fix it lol
05-31-2010, 03:43 PM
#457
UPDATE!;
Now, this may mean nothing, in part, BUT I DOUBT IT!
When trying to start it up just moments ago, IT BARELY STAYS RUNNING! So, for the heck of it, I came around and messed with the adjustment screws, ....NOTHIN. It's actually stalling, now. So, I crossed E1 and T in the diagnostic port, and VOILA, ......3 CODES DON'TCHA-KNOW?????????
1ST CODE; 7 BLINKS= TPS(HOWEVERRRRRRRR, this might be the one I'd mentioned as moot because I disconnected it while trying to mess with the motor)
2ND CODE; 8 BLINKS= INTAKE AIR THERMO SENSOR SIGNAL
3RD CODE; 2 BLINKS= AIRFLOW METER SIGNAL
Now, what I need to know is this; ..........
When pulling the TPS, will it also cause the ECU to throw a code for the AFM and Thermo-sensor(is that the lil cone inside the AFM???)
PLEASE, help, I don't want to make something of nothing, if in fact I inadvertently caused the ECU to throw the codes for all three by disconnecting the TPS. However, as I remember, before the build and even before the Radiator, etc.....when I took it in to Toyo-Automotive, I had pulled the TPS and it was only throwing a TPS and O2 code....so I'm THINKING I can rule that out. HOLY CRAPOLI, .....COULD THE TOYOTA HEAD TECHNICIAN BE RIGHT?....IT'S THE AFM? ..........don't worry,i wouldn't DARE jump the gun, EVER AGAIN with this dang thing! LOL
ANY INPUT??????????????? PLEASE?????????? .....OK, I'LL GROVEL, .....PRETTY PLEASE????????? HAHAHAHAH
Now, this may mean nothing, in part, BUT I DOUBT IT!
When trying to start it up just moments ago, IT BARELY STAYS RUNNING! So, for the heck of it, I came around and messed with the adjustment screws, ....NOTHIN. It's actually stalling, now. So, I crossed E1 and T in the diagnostic port, and VOILA, ......3 CODES DON'TCHA-KNOW?????????
1ST CODE; 7 BLINKS= TPS(HOWEVERRRRRRRR, this might be the one I'd mentioned as moot because I disconnected it while trying to mess with the motor)
2ND CODE; 8 BLINKS= INTAKE AIR THERMO SENSOR SIGNAL
3RD CODE; 2 BLINKS= AIRFLOW METER SIGNAL
Now, what I need to know is this; ..........
When pulling the TPS, will it also cause the ECU to throw a code for the AFM and Thermo-sensor(is that the lil cone inside the AFM???)
PLEASE, help, I don't want to make something of nothing, if in fact I inadvertently caused the ECU to throw the codes for all three by disconnecting the TPS. However, as I remember, before the build and even before the Radiator, etc.....when I took it in to Toyo-Automotive, I had pulled the TPS and it was only throwing a TPS and O2 code....so I'm THINKING I can rule that out. HOLY CRAPOLI, .....COULD THE TOYOTA HEAD TECHNICIAN BE RIGHT?....IT'S THE AFM? ..........don't worry,i wouldn't DARE jump the gun, EVER AGAIN with this dang thing! LOL
ANY INPUT??????????????? PLEASE?????????? .....OK, I'LL GROVEL, .....PRETTY PLEASE????????? HAHAHAHAH
05-31-2010, 03:54 PM
#458
Actually, now that i think about it, the Dealership had removed the AFM and most likely didn't pull the fuse or ground, ....so I've removed the negative and I'll let it sit for 30 min.....and we'll see, but I'll BET I don't have a code again. Son of a BISCUIT! See, this is why I said "don't worry, I wont jump the gun!"...........whateverrrrrrrrrrrrrr
05-31-2010, 04:15 PM
#459
YotaTech Milestone-Two Millionth Post
i'm still here...just have no clue bud.......sorry.....i keep nudging this to te top for ya if i have to so you get an answer.
05-31-2010, 05:04 PM
#460
JERRY! Sup Brudda? lol, .....thanks, very much, ....I appreciate it, much!
Ok, so, AS I SUSPECTED.....when I pulled the ground and sat for a few......restarted, ......NO CODES! NOT A SINGLE, STINKING ONE! lol.
Oh well, I'm not surprised, and I wasn't getting my hopes up, trust me. I just 'WANTED TO BELIEVE', hahaha.
Lil Update;
After pulling the ground, then restarting it, .....IT RAN MUCH BETTER!(I find this very telling!...I just don't know what it's trying to tell me, hahaha).. It's almost as if the ECU was stuck in a mode that was trying to adjust for the pulled AFM or TPS..... I drove around the hood, about 20 minutes, and it seemed to run fairly well, ....but as I said, before, it keeps wanting to idle down a lil after sitting at a light for about a minute or so(about the same time it takes for it to go to crap from cold to open loop, hmmmmmmmmmm).
I also did the 'Redneckanic Trick', as my friend above suggested...."Turn it off when it's doing it, and restart it".....and I'LL BE DANGED if it didn't clear up for a SHORT time......then back to same ol' crap again. If I open it up fairly decent, driving for any period of time(1/4 mile or more), then stop, ...it takes longer to go into that hiccuping nonsense. Not sure if that helps, bro, but there'go!
Ok, so, AS I SUSPECTED.....when I pulled the ground and sat for a few......restarted, ......NO CODES! NOT A SINGLE, STINKING ONE! lol.
Oh well, I'm not surprised, and I wasn't getting my hopes up, trust me. I just 'WANTED TO BELIEVE', hahaha.
Lil Update;
After pulling the ground, then restarting it, .....IT RAN MUCH BETTER!(I find this very telling!...I just don't know what it's trying to tell me, hahaha).. It's almost as if the ECU was stuck in a mode that was trying to adjust for the pulled AFM or TPS..... I drove around the hood, about 20 minutes, and it seemed to run fairly well, ....but as I said, before, it keeps wanting to idle down a lil after sitting at a light for about a minute or so(about the same time it takes for it to go to crap from cold to open loop, hmmmmmmmmmm).
I also did the 'Redneckanic Trick', as my friend above suggested...."Turn it off when it's doing it, and restart it".....and I'LL BE DANGED if it didn't clear up for a SHORT time......then back to same ol' crap again. If I open it up fairly decent, driving for any period of time(1/4 mile or more), then stop, ...it takes longer to go into that hiccuping nonsense. Not sure if that helps, bro, but there'go!
Last edited by ChefYota4x4; 05-31-2010 at 05:07 PM.
