RMP8080

Mark, My O2 is located just before the CAT, in your picture I could not tell, wonder if that makes at diffence? The CAT does get really hot and O2 depending on the location may give the computer strange reading.....just my observation .....hope it all works out....Bill

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

My 86 runner and 87 flatbed have the O2 sensor and in the mainifold and the 88 and up have them in the exhaust pipe. I have seen where the sensor only reads on exhuast cylinder and where others read from all of the cylinders. Not sure if I like all of the different setups and how it has to affect actual readings.

I did talk to a guy that has his own garage for a business and he says he has a scanner that will go so much more indepth of code readings or when codes dont show up. I really didnt think they had one for ours. I have usually been able to stumble my way thru a problem. I know he probably wouldnt charge much for me to hook up to it. Sometimes it does pay to have a good relationship with a local mechanic. See what one might charge you to do a test.

There has been a time or two that I just didnt have the time to get to a problem and send it out. So dont blame you for sending it to someone else. Especially being a daily driver and just cant have down time on it.

Sometime after 87 or the 87 2WD is when they went from a single wire O2 sensor to a 4 wire sensor. I remember the 89 having a 4 wire.

Hope things work out well on some outside help on your stepdad. That is some trying times. I have some distance relatives that are having health issues and trying to help them has been a handful. Thing is they have the funds to get hired help but are such tightwads. I try to help where and when possible and it is stressful. I could only imagine what you are going thru. Have been keeping you in thoughts and prayers. Hope something works out soon.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Bill..... The 02 on which rig? The 87?

Terry, sup man? Yeah... I could really use some access to one of those scanners, lol. Either way, there are a couple more tests I could try on the VF-E1 end, using a MM.

And sure enough, I have no problem taking it in for some help. Just seems with my rig that everything takes hours to find, lol. Of course, that guy at Jap. Auto Center figured it out quick using propane to run it instead of GAS/Injectors, etc.... MAN I just pray it's not mechanical!

Thanks for the kind words, man.... I know it's not an uncommon story

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

I just wanted to check something, so I got a 1.5V AA battery. My Voltmeter, on 2V or 20V setting reads 1.58V on the AA Battery. Seeing that I'm reading between .250 and .680 while reading the 0x-E1 connectors... it seems the 02, while it MIGHT not have a 'lazy' connection in the sense of "8 times in 10 seconds"... it might have a Voltage Feedback problem with the ECU, ...right? lol. Since the 02 test is so sensitive and rapid, I can't be sure that the meter is able to keep up... But if my meter is adjusting 1 time every second(just going by what was said, I think on the Smog Thread)...then it shouldn't have a problem reading 8 times in 10 seconds.

ALSO;

I found the 02 Testing section from the copies I made of the Dealer Foreman's 87 FSM, when I was down there over a year ago(I'd forgotten I had it, sorry).... It's very similar to the 88 one that I have downloaded, but there are a couple differences in the testing procedures, ....and it SEEMS a lil bit more extensive(I suppose because the 88 and up versions have heated sensors which enable a quicker diagnosis).

The problem I have with the FSM is understanding some of the procedures as to "if this is good, move here, if it's bad, move here, back up to there and then try 'A' and then back to '8' and then ...."replace ECU" ".... stuff like that, lol. But I should be able to do a basic reading of the "hook MM to VF and E1, then short E1 and T, then race engine at 2,500rpm for 90 seconds, measure 'Voltage Feedback', .... If under 0V, check(?), if over, check (?)..." sorry, don't have it in front of me, I'll paste it here in a minute as I have it saved to my photobucket account.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Apparently, at some point and direction in testing, you can lean toward "rich or lean". I see, somewhat, how you follow the direction IF something checks out, then another direction IF NOT, .... but it's still confusing to me. Something about how it's laid out just turns my brain to mashed taters, lol.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

GUYS, PLEASE, HELP! lol...........

OK, It's not that I'm not understanding the lot of it... But, more so, checking to be sure I'm coming to the right conclusion.......

Here is some "PAINT" edited photos, the same ones I just posted..... With my results........




What I'm wondering is, ...'WHY IN THE HECK does it say "If more than 0 Volts, replace 02 Sensor?".... I've not seen one check where it isn't supposed to measure voltage when those are plugged in.

YES, I see that it's possibly lazy... not tilting the meter quickly enough.....(I used both meters, and the dial one worked for the VF-E1 testing this time) ......but isn't it supposed to read some voltage with the VF-E1 plugged into and E1-T jumper DISCONNECTED????

I can't move on until I get this right. I mean, if I AM reading it right, maybe it's revealing that the 02 is lazy where it is... SOMETHING, ...but I don't know enough about the relevant relationships, etc., to make an assumption like that. All I THINK I know at this point is that it's telling me 'replace the 02 sensor' with the testing I've done so far. From the point that I saw it was less than 8 times in 10 seconds(Watched the dial jump 6-7 times with a timer set up and just kept starting at 10-20-1.30, etc., then 10 seconds from there... Always seemed to come up with 6-7 times, definitely not 8... but close, ya know?). Am I missing a step? Looking right past something up there? Please let me know what you think, guys? I'm not really sure.

Thanks!

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

..................... not pathetic enough? ... hmmm. lol.... Oh well.

RMP8080

Sorry, Mark the 89 runner....

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Thanks, Bill

Yeah.... this sux! lol. Still searching for an answer, just haven't had enough time to sit down here for more than 10 minutes at a time, ya know?

Anyone have an answer? Think I'll start an 02 thread, if I can't find an existing one that's right on the same details, ya know?

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hey guys..... "LCE Header on 87 22RE/02 Location issue" seems to be a FAIRLY common problem. Obviously, as I mentioned, not EVERYONE ordering them is in CA, nor having issue with smog testing... AND, well, I can't be sure it IS my issue.. But seeing that the 02 signal swing is slower than it should be... (back and forth 6-7 times in 10 seconds), and seeing that my voltage reading was off(??? I still don't know if I did that right ).... I can't be sure, but it's VERY possible that my changing to this header/2.25" exhaust to the very back, etc., ...it's costing me on the NOX portion of testing.

I suspect that most people who might be still reading this thread are just don't have any answers.... But I HAVE to figure this out, so I just keep searching, ya know? (I can't just take it in yet, cuz I have to drop it in the morning and leave it all day... It's a busy and trusted shop for 'smog repair'... so until I can get a ride, I'm stuck trying to learn as much as I can)...

Here's one example/quote from another thread... mtnyota, I believe whom I've seen on here, says, >>>>>>

"I had a problem passing with my 85 22re with a LCE header, but I was failing on NOx. I tried a bosch 02 and it didn't fix the problem. When hooked up to a scope up to it it was switching too slow. If you ran the engine at like 4000RPM for awhile it would get hot enough to work for a little while. After that I swapped in a 4 wire heated Denso 02 sensor from a 88 22re. This dropped my Nox."

It doesn't go on to explain how it's installed... But I'm tempted to just slap a factory manifold back in there(where the 02 is right before the collector, just below/to the side of the booster, MUCH closer to the head........ BUT, then I'm torn as to whether it would be smarter to just get a heated 02 sensor/less work as well?(Not to mention the performance I might lose by losing the LCE header so I can pass?) Also, as Roger pointed out, my Air/Fuel Ratio(LAMBDA) is at 14.87;1, .... which is lean as he said. I don't want lean... I want 14.7;1! lol.

If anyone sees a WELL DOCUMENTED thread on adding a heated 02 sensor to the LCE set up... pass it along, please? I might add a restrictor plate at the collector as well... It sure seems possible that it's adding to my issues(Especially since Roger did those things, and, as far as I know, did NOT add a heated sensor, and he passed 4 times now with the LCE header)... BUT, I can't be sure, I'll have to check.... I think Roger's LCE header for his 85 is the older version they did which placed the 02 Bung on the actual header. This would HUGELY effect the way his 'restriction plate at the collector' would heat up the 02/along with creating more of the much needed backpressure.

I suppose it's possible that with Grego(92 22RE/LCE header with 2 02sensors and EGR cooling and EGR temp sensor system... unlike my prehistoric one).. that he's doing fine on NOX because; He has a heated 02 and more Advanced EGR system

WHAT I CAN'T UNDERSTAND is this; WHY DON'T I HAVE A C.E.L. if the 02 is lazy and putting out voltage when it's not supposed to? As far as I understand it... The ECU CAN NOT effect the 'output' of the 02... The 02 only READS AND DELIVERS signal, right??????????????????????????

For the heck of it, I'm going to put in my old 02 Sensor and see what I get from it, lol. I mean, why not... I'm a whole weekend away from getting a pro to look at it,.... and if ANYONE can give me some proper tricks to try, I WILL, I PROMISE! lol.

ROGER???? LOL.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

OH, and please, someone answer this stupid question I'm asking?>>>>

*** When the FSM says, "meter needle should fluctuate 8 times or more in 10 seconds"... Does that mean 'When the needle moves from the left, to right, then back where it was, that's COUNTED AS "ONE FLUCTUATION"?????????

RMP8080

I think it's one count and when it starts again left to right is two.

Also my 89 runner has a 4 wire o2 and it's 5 1/2 inches before the CAT. If that matters.
Mark can you use the old stock manifold? That maybe a good test.....

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

I can't use the orig. manifold, Bill... It's got a couple holes along the seam. Thanks for the response. Hopefully a guru like Roger or Scope or someone will chime in, but I have an idea who to call and just rule that out. From what I'm reading on others threads, having the LCE header issue... they're also having a 'lazy sensor' problem. I mean, it's like 18" or so from where it was... And like Roger mentioned, by adding the LCE and larger pipe, I have eliminated lots of backpressure.(Ted of engnbldr told me this as well... He mentioned, "this is why I like the original manifold.. It works well with our racing motors, and it's set up to have the proper backpressure. that's why I recommend stock pipe til after the muffler.")

I have stock pipe AFTER the CAT, which I believe is 2.25", or at least 2", so I would need to get a new Mani or have mine cast-welded and a new down pipe to the cat to fit it. I could just use exhaust tape on the down pipe, for now, ... but I'd rather have it welded/fixed, IF I go that route.

Problem is I LOVE the performance I'm getting from the set up I have. It is, along with the 261 cam and head work, doing GREAT on power and hills, etc.

I am willing to put in a restriction plate like Roger did, but that would be BEFORE the 02/CAT, ... so I don't think it would help heat up the 02 enough, ya know? I'm hoping Roger will answer on the "Where is your 02 located".. maybe he has already, I have to read back on my smog thread. lol.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

SOOOOO, I stopped by The Smog Repair shop I will end up using if need be. The guy was nice enough to talk to me for about 5 minutes, but his shop was TOTALLY slammed! lol....

He basically looked at the test results and in combination with my quick run down of EVERYTHING, including the modulator replacement/timing drop/how it ran crappy after the new modulator, initially/the readings on the 02/ and his response was;

"This is a tough one... Actually, believe it or not, as Scope/5way reading experts.... we LOVE OBD1.... It eliminates so many culprits. Your 87 DID have some with EGR Temp Sensors and the 02 on the down pipe... BUT, most didn't. I gotta tell ya, with high nox, I ALWAYS look to EGR first... 95% of the time, it might appear to operate properly for people, but upon further inspection, we sometimes find the block plate is all stopped up, etc. Seeing as you COULD get it to stall fairly easily at 3500rpm.... It's not likely TERRIBLY bad, but can't say til we re-route some things with a scope in there and then rule it out/conclude it's bad. Now, what you told me, about the 'New CAT' but running lean and having blown the HG, as short of a time as it was.... You have no idea how many times we've had CAT's, even less than a year old, FAIL... Why? Because 'lean condition' will kill a CAT faster than anything! That doesn't mean it's your CAT... they're too expensive to throw one in for 'the heck of it'.. So we would simply test before and after the CAT to find out how well it's working. See, if your nox has been high for these 8-10K miles since you first put it in.... It could EASILY be toast enough to cause you to fail. BUT, if you add the 02 issue, etc. ... My recommendation would be to AT LEAST have the 02 welded into the collector portion of that header.... I know, CARB was there when they were built.. But these old rigs, rebuilt or not, have tempers... Sensors might even be new, but wiring is not, etc... .It all adds up.. SO, as I was saying, I'd at least put the 02 back into the HEADER, itself. To be honest, Mark, I've seen plenty of DThorley headers with the 02 right in the 3&4 pipes fail, with a brand new 02.... It's a lot to do with backpressure, as you said,... but it's often more of just a 'TOTALLY CONFUSED' or 'PRESSED BEYOND IT'S PRESET LIMITS' ECU/02/AFM/TPS relationship. You gain flow, but that reads as 'really cool', OR 'RICH', which then turns into the 02 telling the ECU at 25MPH at 2500 rpm... "LEAN IT OUT"...... YEP, I'd move it, what could it hurt? And do it before you come to me, because I wanna either verify to you, "it'll pass now, no problem" OR, "ok, we have another problem, all together"... Why come here with the 02 being lazy, only to have me tell you, ..."Mark, the 02 is lazy"? Right?"

I agreed, but now I'm trying to decide whether to do what Roger did with the restriction plate AND the 02 in a different location.... Or just slap in my Factory Exhaust system to the CAT, then re-test and see where it's at???? All depends on what they want to charge for the adding of a bung to my header collector area, etc. I'd rather go that route, obviously.. But he's also told me, "Even a year of an 02 running lazy and lean and then getting hit by even a short lived HG failure.... It could be done. Need to do a bench test". lol. HEY, at least I have something to work with, thanks to you guys and a smog guy... But furthermore, I'm not dropping it off today only to have the smog guy tell me, "Yeah, you gotta move this 02 sensor back up the line and fix this and that and this and that", first, right? lol.

He seemed to think that the CAM, etc., all that shouldn't effect it enough to have such a high NOX(which he's said he's seen MUCH higher, even into the 2700 Range)..... And said, "Which usually means your CAT is at least doing SOMETHING. But then again, with these perfectly tuned.... they sometimes can even pass smog w/out a CAT... BARELY, but I've seen it happen in 'repair station testing' ".

For the heck of it, I pulled out my old exhaust, manifold and pipe. The holes in the pipe are 'close to the collector' and I think a couple back from there. They've been welded before. I'm getting pictures up now;>>>>

My stock piping/Manifold in the garage;

The downpipe is like this on both sides of the pipe just below the 2-into-1 portion after the collector.



Here is the manifold. The area on the right/along that seam, is where I THOUGHT it was leaking, ...but unfortunately didn't get video back when I did the seafoam test ... Anyway, here's a pic of the mani I have(original)....



PS> The 'WET' is PB Blaster, soaking on the studs that I would have to remove/replace.

************************************************** ******

So, ......... I wanna do this the most logical way possible. Whatcha all think(according to what the smog guy said and what options I have?)

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

EDIT!!!!!!: I corrected 'WHAT ROGER DID', just ahead here>>> I rushed him and he just had to look it up and then DID correct my post on the CA Smog Thread(and here)... So, it is NOT 1-a,b,c and d that are the EGR ports... It's "3 AND 4" IN THE PICTURE...where the EGR backflow ports are located. Exhaust gases are pulled back in there(via backpressure, which makes more sense just visualizing it... Has to be backpressure to force the EGR gases back through there, right?).. They then go to the back of the head and over and out the lower EGR port on the intake side/up through the EGR and then back through the plenum. The EGR diaphragm is activated(from what I can tell) by the modulator, which is what that lil t-pipe off the side of the EGR goes right to.

If I'm going to go with the theory that the 02 being too far back, with the LCE header, is a problem, then I'll most likely be having a bung put in the collector area of the header, where all 4 pipes meet. It makes NO sense to be where it is, considering how a 1 wire 02 Sensor works. For Grego and Ian and others, it makes PERFECT sense, because they're dealing with heated 02 sensors.......

Now, at that point, I have to consider that backpressure could be a problem as well........I would have to choose which route to go with this....

1. It looks like it's SUPER easy to create a restriction plate, like here... at post 283>> http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=1119.270 (just scroll down a lil)....

2. BUT, since I might not want to leave in that restriction plate, .. I might just want go with the stock size pipe TO the CAT and then stay at 2" After the CAT, to the muffler,... then 2.25-2.50" out the back. I would think that restriction alone would cause just enough backpressure to 'help the EGR' a lil and keep it from

One thing I might HAVE to have done at a smog or other capable "OSCILLOSCOPE" bearing shop.... Test my CAT. They can probe before and after a CAT and really see how much it's doing. Of course, they could just test my pipe at the back and see what I'm running in O2, CO2, NOX, HC and CO.... AFTER I do the 02 Move and such. What I mean is, I might not need a CAT, JUST YET, right? Sure, the HG blowing at first start of this motor might have just done it in, especially after running lean for a few thousand miles as well.... That KILLS a CAT faster than anything, according to the Smog Repair dude I spoke with. "Lean = CAT DEATH" lol... BUT, ... it's probably not 180$ to FIND OUT if it's bad, so maybe it's worth a shot to see.

Once I move the 02 bung up to the pre-Collector area on the header, I would likely re-test my 02 and see if it's quite as lazy as it is back where it is now. I know, it's only 29$ for another from sparkplugs.com... but WHY buy it if I don't need it, right??? lol. If I see it's sped up a bit, then I would BET DOLLARS TO DONUTS, ... it's getting the heat it needs and now will send THE PROPER MESSAGE to the ECU, which then directs Injector timing/pulse rate.

YA FEEL ME? hahaha.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

RE; CA Smog Failure(And whatever else within my motor/efi/ecu might be causing my failure).........

I've spoken to an exhaust shop that I trust, they QUICKLY asked me, "What kind of CAT?".... I responded, "CATCO"(which I had no hand in choosing, I just didn't know), to which he responded, ....."OHHhhhh, .... yeah, those are a LAST resort for me. And, considering you failed with high HC ....AND... NOx, I would GUESS, only a guess... the HG failure, added to the '2.25" ', added to your 02 being so much further back, all have added to your CAT is most likely already dead. The exhaust guy said he'd weld an 02 bung in for 20$, FREE if I get the CAT from him, which would be 200$ for a Magnaflow 3-way..........

I tell ya, ....there's times in this build/my life with the truck over the last couple years.... I've just about had enough of the 'gremlin hunt'. I mean, one knowledgeable guy is telling me "it's likely the EGR, even still", the other saying, "I put my money on the CAT", the next saying, "Doesn't matter if you replace the entire EGR/Emissions system, it's still going to wind up right back there, because something VERY tricky has gone haywire, ECU, 02, TPS, Wiring, whatever, and it's got to be fixed first, or you'll never have longevity with these motors, etc."...... I'm not complaining over the advice, etc... I WANT IT ALL, it at least keeps me looking/learning and able to gain the ability to then 'rule out/verify' this, that or the other.

Example.. My neighbor took one look in my tail pipe and said,"NO WAY, dude, I'm telling you it's running rich, MOST OF the time. It's totally black in there.... When it's running lean, it'll clean that right up."... Which then leaves me CHASING MY PROVERBIAL 'CRANIAL TAIL'! I then start thinking, "Man, even if I put back the entire stock exhaust system... what if I have an 02 Wiring issue?", plus 100 other things, which leave me feeling like "what's the point"? But then the only option is to take it in and spend hundreds of dollars for someone to tell me, "Oh yeah, your harness wiring has to be bad/dead in these spots, etc."... And then I remember that I tested most EVERYTHING at the ECU(besides the 02, since it's location was changed), tested every sensor..... But I can't REALLY ever know if my AFM is causing intermittent/erratic issues, etc., YA KNOWWWWWWW????? :angry:

***Before the following, consider this; I have a brand new Denso 02 on the way to me, should be here Monday(21$ with 15% coupon from sparkplugs.com)***

I guess I would just like the opinions of ANYONE who cares to interject....

*WHAT WOULD YOU DO, AT THIS POINT?*

I have several options, including;

1. Re-installing the stock exhaust manifold and pipe thereafter to the CAT>(A CAT which, unfortunately, should probably be replaced....AGAIN!)

2. Have a Bung welded to the Collector portion of the LCE Header(he couldn't tell me if that's legal... but he said the smog test guy would probably RATHER see it where it's supposed to be, factory-OEM, anyhow). I would imagine I could use the Bung on the CAT Back pipe for the 02 that is there now(cut it off) and have him weld THAT into the 4-1 Portion, where the 4 runners meet.??????

3. Do everything in #2, INCLUDING; Change the CAT back pipe to 2", go with a 2" Magnaflow CAT and restrict the flow at the collector a bit, to aid in 'back-pressure'.

4. Leave everything the way it is, but add a NEW CAT and Heated 02(spliced into the "RUN" portion of the IGN, so it's only one when running.... Maybe to the Fuel Pump wiring, then add a relay?)???????

************************************************** ************


No matter what I decide, I sure hope it has the effect that I want... which is;

GET THIS THING RUNNING LIKE IT'S SUPPOSED TO, PROPER AIR/FUEL RATIO, BETTER MILEAGE, LOSE THE 'MISS' I HAVE, THEN JUST FREAKIN DRIVE IT!!!! :angry2:

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

Mark... If I understood you right you were trying to remove the studs from the manifold. I would suggest not to and just buy some new one from Toyota. Once you get them out, I have not been able to find away to get them to stay in. Even using new studs. I have tried using JB Weld and it will melt right out.

As far as using headers, I have in the past but my biggest reason was because finding a good mainfold is next to impossible. I am not sure the gain from manifold to header was even noticeable in my case. Not saying it is a bad upgrade, as I am sure every little bit helps, but I really didnt notice any power gain.

As far as welding a bung in, I have had exhaust shops to replace a O2 sensor several times and it just cost me $25 to have it done. As far as position I am not sure which would be best.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

sup Terry?

OK, so, ..... that manifold I was handed? Right out the box, I get it all ready to slap on, made a deal with the exhaust guy I know.... etc., etc. ... IT'S CRACKED! Yep, shined light down the #1 runner to verify.... "let there be light", shining right through! GRRRR! He left me the receipt... So I was heading down the street to return it for another, then thought, "You know, ... this CHINA crap is NEVER going to match my original manifold, if it's in fact worth looking at!" ... so on the way to the parts store, I stopped at my machinist buddy... He slapped it(my original) on the grinder, sand blasted it, DONE! ....10$ Then, I slapped some 'FLAT ALUMICOTE COLOR HI-TEMP PAINT' I already had on it, ... and voila, for 14$ my Manifold, hopefully, is good to go, IF I go that route for now.

Well, what did NOT work out so well this; I suspected my top-right exhaust stud hole in the head was a LIL stripped.... And now it's COMPLETELY stripped. Of course, the WORST possible hole it could be, stripped! I still have a tap/helicoil kit from NAPA for the M10-1.25 repair... But I can't get the 13/32 drill bit in there to hone it out! AHHHHHHHHHHH! Anyone have one of those fancy drills that let you do it at a 90* angle?

So now, either way, I HAVE to get this fixed to even put ANYTHING on! It was holding like 25# before, so I don't think that was a 'SERIOUSLY' contributing factor on the smog(it's not the lower/center bolt, right next to the EGR port or anything,... but it can't be helping me in ANY case! Good LORD this head better not crack! (I can't tap that hole just like it is, without drilling it out with the 13/32 bit first, right? hahaha.... ahhhhh )

Tellin you guys... I CAN'T POSSIBLY have a competitor in the 'MURPHY'S LAW/CRAP LUCK' dept.! lol. I know of a tool shop down the road that carries ANYTHING in bits, short as you want.. So either I can go that route... or I'm open to IDEAS??

PS> I COULD get the drill in there, ..... IF I REMOVE MY BOOSTER..... ??? Please tell me there's another way?

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

I think I can use a 'Close Quarters' 3/8 drill and make it happen... GREGO... you got one? lol. I just can't spend anymore money if I don't have to, ya know?

I'll ask my neighbor tomorrow... He might just have one. :kneelingandprayingsmiley: hahahaa.