Hello to all my YT brothers. I am new to SAS as I have only owned IFS Toyotas, so if my questions are stupid, feel free to tell me and explain why. I have searched this thread all over looking for information on my most recent build of a 94 Toyota truck. Here are a few of the questions I have.
My biggest debate is wether to go with IFS long travel from Blazeland or to SAS. My wheeling will be moderate to heavy as this is not my DD and in Colorado there is everything from rocks to snow. By no means do I plan to build a trophy truck.
This project will also be on a budget.
I am currently looking at a couple of IFS eliminator kits. First is from All Pro Offroad and the second is from Addicted Offroad. After looking at these kits I am undecided which one to go with. Any body have any experience with either of thes kits. From what I understand the Trail Gear kit is the same as the Addicted Offroad kit. I am looking at running 37-39 unch tires. The axle will be from an 84 or 85.
I am not afraid to do some trimming to fit larger tires. What would be the best lift size springs to run these. I saw a guy in here running 4" with 37's. Also with these kits what all will I need, or will the kit come with just about everything? Also will 5.29's with a 22re be enough to push these. If you guys know of a thread comparing the SAS kits or the expense compared to long travel IFS, and exactly which parts were needed to complete the SAS please throw it my direction.
I don not have access to a welder however I can figure that out when I get there. Any advice for what has worked for you guys vs what has not is appreciated. Hopefully I can do this right the first time.
Thanks for your help in advance.

 

Just call Scotty and talk to him. Stupid to go anywhere else when he's that close.

:wabbit2:

 

Agreed, I talked to Scotty at toy techs little get together this year, way nice guy and he has everything you need

 

There are a few questions you need to answer.

What is the intended use? You say moderate to heavy use, but what is that? What some define as moderate others would define as extreme hard core and vice versa.

Are you talking a dedicated rock crawler, mud bogger, dune runner, fire road racer, Moab, Hammers etc.

What tire size? That is probably the biggest single factor to look at when deciding between IFS and LA. A live axle can easily be built to take 37s and even 39s if driving responsibly. I've spent the last two years running IFS really hard with 35s, 37s are on the way and we'll see how well it holds up with those but I doubt I'll have too many more problems, though that will probably be the upper limits of the parts currently available without going to an 8" center and bigger outer stubs.

As far as fun, I've had a lot of off road rigs over the years, from my first couple 1st Gen pick-ups, to Jeeps, Scouts, Samurais, Land Cruisers and even buggy type things and I'll tell you that my LT equipped 4Runner is the most fun I've had in years; not only fun to drive off road, but also fun to drive on road and to me that's what it is all about, having a rig that is fun to drive.

 

pretty much all the kts out there are the same crap... they are all trail gear products basically. go for whoever is cheapest

 

Good point. I would like to run 37's, but I will start with 35's as i have a brand new set of tires. Wheeling, I like it all. Don't plan on going fast, who does with a 22re? I am totally curious as to how your 37's work with your IFS. My main type of wheeling will be rocks and snow, but I would like to build a rig that could handle it all. I know this is not very helpful but I tend to see something and want to run my toy over it wether it is rocks or snow wheeling or rutted out trails. I am not talking dedicated rock crawler, i.e. moab but if I decided that I wanted to take it there, I would like for it to be capable enough to handle it. Comfort is the main thing as the gf will not enjoy a crap ride. I guess really I am more up in the air of wether or not to SAS or LT it. What setup are you running to go with 37's? I was thinking of the blazeland kit with a 2 inch body lift and some "minor metal messaging". I plan on bobbing and dovetailing the bed and honestly when I say moderate to heavy, I still would like to be able to drive it city wise yet be able to tackle the difficult rated Colorado trails. Hope this helps. Basically will I be dissapointed if I go LT or put that money towards SAS. Comfy and fun to drive, yet capable, does that sort of help?

 

I also have been looking at your site lately Wild West Offroad, how long has this place been open? Are the blazeland LT kits all they are hyped up to be? Do you have a build thread?
Are chevy 63's a good match for this kit, or would you go with all pro offroad rears? A super flexxy IFS would be cool and unique, even though I never thought I would see those words together in 1 sentence.

 

Thanks for the replies, keep them coming. Scotty knows his stuff. I am just unsure of the capabilities of the new IFS designs as far as a multipurpose wheeler goes.

 

After my last vehicle I learned real quick I will never lift an ifs truck again, good luck with whatever you decide

 

You say you are considering 39's. IFS and 39's don't mix.

 

I'd buy your kit from Scotty I buy all my parts from him great guy easy to deal with extremely knowledgeable and he's local for you! 4 in springs is all you need it's what I run with 37's and my buddy also has them in 39.5's the 3in springs are actually taller and stiffer. 5.29's are nice most people say you'll need them but I ran without them for over 2 years I just put mine in last week and they are incredible! Also would highly reccomend getting dirty 30's for the front axle to keep you from breaking a birf and I'd reccomend them before gears unless you have money to do them both at the same time. Which would be ideal so you wouldn't have to tear the front end apart twice. And also get arp knuckle studs! Blaze land long travel is great but for the wheeling your doing and the size of tires you want to run I think a sas is better for you sas is best for in the rocks hands down you don't have to worry about breaking cvs. And just less moving parts. Hope this helped feel free to rummage through my build thread I learned alot the hard way and its almost all documented lol!

 

Haven't put the 37"s on yet, that will come late spring/early summer. To run the 35s, I am running the Blazeland kit with Sway-a-way torsions and Superlift shocks (they were too still with the bracket kit, just right with the LT kit due to the extra leverage).

As far as what I will be doing to run the 37"s, probably going to do a cut down bracket lift kit combined with the Blazeland kit, a centered 8" diff and then some more fender trimming; still in the planning stages at this time. I would guess that then the weak link will be the outer CV stubs (27 spline vs the 30 spline LA stub). Steering upgrades and then coil-overs are next on the list before the 37"s.



You def. will not be disappointed with ride quality or trail performance of an LT kit. The disappointment will be if you try to run hard with 35s or bigger without upgrading your CVs.

I have the RCV CV set and an ARB up front, these take care of the weak parts in the front end. The outer joint is basically the same as the Longfields with a dust boot, the inner joint is a race prepped cromo 930 CV (think porsche). They're not cheap, but breakage is a thing of the past.

One of the big differences between an SAS and a IFS will be the amount of fab work you need to do. The Blazeland LT kit is pretty much a bolt-on venture. No cutting or welding needed, you can also finish it in a day, so downtime is minimal.

I would say that if you are going to run 37s right away, the SAS is the better choice because it is a proven combination. If you are going to get new 35s and run them until for a couple years and you want to try something different, go with the Blazeland kit, it will surprise you.

We've been open full-time since 2007, part-time since 1989. We are mostly known for our axle builds, skunk works ARB parts and more recently IFS suspension design. We've built axle parts for some of the biggest names in Ultra 4 racing (King of the Hammers stuff) and last year designed the IFS suspension that Jason Scherer has ran this past season in the #76 ASR racing rig.


My Blazeland build-up was featured a couple years ago in 4WD Toyota Owner magazine. There are a few other Blazeland build-ups here on YT if you look. Other than Nate at Blazeland, I've probably got more miles on my kit than anyone else, it has been my daily driver for 2 years and I'm not afraid of driving it a couple hours to go wheeling somewhere and then a couple hours back home.




The 63"s would be a great match for this kit. I'm just running the Deaver mini-pack with a 1" block in the back and it is the limiting point in my suspension at this time; I should have done a longer leaf set-up to begin with. Not sure what the future will bring, probably a 4-link in the summer or fall.


Hence my sig line, I only keep it to remind people what the mind set was not too long ago....



Holy LONG replies, but it was necessary.

 

Yes sir, 39's may be in the plan if I decided to SAS. 39's however would absolutely not happen if I went with the long travel.

VANCE 164. I have just started reading through your build thread. Got to say I love your build. I have the same problem of learning things the hard way, and that gets expensive. Honeslty that is why I started this thread. I wanted some more opinions before I drop some serious money. Thanks for the reply and I may be contacting you for help if I go this route.

TECH TIM
You guys seem to know your stuff. Good luck with the 37's. I am curious as to all of the modifications you will be doing. Definately think you should create a thread on this as this will be a super unique build (not that it already is not) with the ammount of fab work to run the 37's good luck with this. I may be contacting you, if thats ok, when I make a final decision. Feel free to keep chiming in on this thread. I am also hoping my questions may be able to help a fellow YT member in the future as when this same question arises. I will read BLAZNATES build. Are the fiberglass fenders a must for this kit? Or can I cut the crap out of my own? Why fiberglass for LT?

You guys all know your stuff and what has worked vs what hasn't seems to be the story of my life, mainly the what hasn't part.

So since LT has come along way in a short time, what would be some of the major down falls of IFS in comparrison to SAS or visa versa. I.E. Is SAS really cheaper? Some guys claim they do the full swap for like $500. Problem is, I would not trust my welding ability nor, do I have immediate access to a welder. Building a SFA can get pricey. Lets set a goal of 37's wether IFS or SAS. Can a stock SFA from and 84 or 85 handle 37's. I know IFS may be sketch but I will be running 35's for a year or two, I have a brand new set. For all around wheeling and price might LT IFS be the way to go. I will be searching the builds for both

Keep the replies coming you guys are awesome.

 

Wow just realized how lame that icon looks. It's supposed to be a guy bowing.

 

I would defiantly recommend at least the chromo 27 spline birfs to run 37's on a sfa. the sas kit for the front is like 999 from tg you can do the swap cheaper if you do a rears up front swap (RUF) but the kit is just easier in general. Lt is a very cool route but really is for a different kind of wheeling then I do I mostly do rocks or snow and never bomb around in my rig. Although it does look like alot of fun. But with sfa you don't have to worry about replacing idler arms or tie rods as often just from blazn8's build it just seems like he's having to replace little things like that often but he does drive his hard at high speeds. And there's really not alot of welding really involved with a sas infact you can have some of the major stuff done before you even pull the front end apart alot of people have there front hangar and shackle tubes done before hand. Then all you have is your hoops and the flat piece for the motor mounts and the steering stablizer shock tab. Lt still is bolt on so that is advantageous but I wouldn't be scared when I started my truck I had no practice or any idea of how to fabricate now I've done 3 different trucks and am starting my 4th this spring. I tired the long travel for we'll not very long and after I got it installed the old Downey lift that blaze land kind of started with to start his design in fact there arms were used for his first prototype. I just wasn't happy and no way would I of been able to clear my 37's with that even with a 3 in body lift. That's just my .02

 

I am subscribed to this! The typical tire size for IFS LT is basically a 33" tire. If you add a 2" body lift and/or do some trimming and flattening of fenders, firewall etc., 35s will work. I have found on my truck the front fiberglass does nothing for tire clearance at the rear part of the fender and in fact I was able to get more clearance by messaging the factory metal fenders. However, fiberglass does go up higher and cover up the extra width so it serves that purpose. I have a 2" body lift and fiberglass, if I didn't have the body lift I would have to re-evaluate.

If you were to run long arms and a 4" drop bracket and did some of the things I mentioned above I could see 37s working. Maybe even bigger? I think 35s and larger are pushing the drivetrain. T-100 CVs and 7.5 R&P just cannot handle the size and mass of huge tires. Custom CVs and a center mount 8" diff may be the answer? I know people are working on it including myself!

Note: Along with my 1986 LT I also have a 1985 LA with 3" lift leaf springs and a 2" body lift and 33s rub in the same areas. That said the things people need to do to run large tires on a live axle rig somewhat parallel clearance problems with the IFS. Here is a link to my LT / LA build thread.

https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f198...thread-263221/

 

Nate, you're killing me over here.... I am running the Blazeland kit and no body lift and running 35's. Yeah, it bumps and rubs a bit, especially if I have 3 people in the rig, but it is nice and low and works great.

Unless someone else can chime in, I think I have more time and thrashing on the Blazeland and 35s than anyone. The 7.5 ring and pinion will hold up fine with 35s... IF the gears are set-up correctly. I do run an ARB and there are many who think the failure point is the factory carrier and when it goes BANG, it takes the R&P with it. By running the ARB, I get rid of that possible weak point; we just had my diff open over the weekend to check on things while we were replacing the BJs and TREs and it all looks just fine.

The CVs are def. the weak point. It took me about 6 mos to break the OE Toyota CVs and then I could break the auto store replacements pretty after that; the wrong bounce on a tough obstacle and snap! The RCVs have been in for awhile now without any issue now. The picture above was taken Oct 2011, so at least a year and a few months now I've been wheeling the RCVs and they are tough. They have a lifetime warranty and RCV asked me to try to break them for testing, so they get bounced on a bit with no fear.

The next week point we found was the idler arms. We are now on #3 and ready to do a heavily beefed one, will let everyone know hows that goes.

37s are going to be a whole 'nother ball game. We'll need a bit more lift and a lot of trimming, including into the footwell and then we'll find what breaks and what doesn't. We'll probably start that process in late spring...can't wait!

 

Maybe I should change this thread name to IFS vs SAS. These are all great points for a newbie to consider. I remember when I had my 99 4runner I was debating the sonoran steele kit and 35's or SAS. I know nothing other than what you guys are teaching me here about LT IFS. Keep this coming so no newbie will even ask this question again. There are several SAS lovers out there, but few IFS, could this slowly be changing? 37's are a large all around desired tire for several off road enthusiasts. There are weak points in both from which I can tell to run 37's that will require "beefing up". We say 37's and IFS do not mix, do we actually have proof? Anybody grenaded their suspension, steering, drivetrain components by running 37's on IFS? Like I said I ask these beacuse I tend to learn things the hard way. Tread lightly here please.

VANCE brings up a good point with the SFA and birfs to run 37's. What are the chromo 27 spline birfs priced at in comparrisson to the RCA's Tech Tim is using? Which are stronger? In theory this is like comparing 2 strokes to 4 strokes or basically apples to oranges. They both do serve their purpose.

TECH TIM. What will be entailed in a "beefing up the idler" arm? Is this the long missed piece from the Downey Rancho kit everyone with IFS is looking for? Does anybody have a kit for this? What about the total chaos kit? Do they have a solution for this problem? Could you just buy their idler arm? Total chaos is out for me, because of price and I do not want a trophy truck.

What about angles? People say SAS is key here for clearance, but with the long travel kit Blazeland has, but is this difference super noticeable super noticeable when wheeling? Honestly to me it would seem if you flex each wheel independently, that would make for a more stable ride which is why we came up with IFS. Military H-1's do not us SFA. Thos will go any where it seems, high or low speeds.

All that said, which is really cheaper as far as parts go and more capable for all purpose wheeling and driving on the road? Is SAS rough on the road. I know when i lifted my Wrangler, granted it had coils, the ride got worse until I added quick disconnects, compared to my IFS lifted 99 4runner. This is why I had my toy for 6 years and my jeep for 2. The only regret I have is selling my 4runner. I could go more places as far as wheeling in my IFS Toy without coming home and peeing blood compared to my jeep.

Keep the replies coming. I hope this thread will answer many questions in the future.

 

Go IFS if you want to be comfortable. SA trucks ride like covered wagons.

Edit:
Send me a pm if you want the title changed..

 

The 35 to 37 tire range tends to be the breaking point, depending on your type of wheeling and your driving style (of course). The big two failure points in Toyotas seem to be pretty much the same, the axle shaft joints and the steering.

In a LA rig it is the Birfields and the J-arm steering.

In an IFS, it is the CVs and the idler arm.

The LA (or SAS if you prefer) has the advantage of the 8" front diff, which is known to be quite strong and will hold up to 37s for the most part.



IMO, anyone wanting to run cromo Birfields should step up to 30 spline right off the bat, there is no reason to run the 27 spline versions, you have a weaker assembly and you don't save much money.

The 30 spline Longfields are about $775.00 (with hub gears) and the RCVs are more than twice the money at $1600. They have twice the joints and the inner stub shafts with CV flanges, which is why the increase in the price.


The low buck way is the Blazeland idler gusset and the SDORI bronze bushings in the Duralast FA5040 idler arm from Autozone. You can do it for around $150.00. I have my Blazeland truss already and the SDORI bushings are on the way.

The current high buck way is a HD steering kit from either Total Chaos or JD Fab, now you are looking at $400.00 for the TC idler (only) on up above $1K for the complete JD Fab kit.


I don't understand what you mean by angles?

My long travel 4Runner has better clearance and the center than my son's LA 4Runner and it is noticeable wheeling through a rock pile, he bumps and rubs he pumpkin way more than I hit my LCAs.


It is a huge difference on the trail. With leaf springs, my kid's Runner cannot keep up with me on the fireroads and I still have torsion bars and cheapo shocks. It is always way smoother and comfortable on the trail in between the big obstacles going through all the nuisance rocks, roots etc. you just glide through without all the bouncing. On the big obstacles, we are pretty much even, there are a few parts where he excels and a few parts where I excel due to wheelbase and/or width differences (he is a couple inches longer, I am quite a few inches wider), but overall they seem to be quite equal.


I guess that is the biggest thing for many people, the price difference. So let's do a quick add up of brand new parts. These are estimates and approximations.

SAS:
All-Pro SAS kit $1400.00 - includes High steer and shocks
30 spline Longfields $775.00 - includes hub gears
Live axle front $300-ish
IFS steering box $50.00
Total: $2500.00-ish
Labor: Cut off all the old IFS brackets etc and weld on the new stuff. Easy for people who fabricate and have the parts, not so for those who cannot/do not.

Yes it can be done cheaper by building your own brackets and hoops, yes you can source the axle and strg box cheaper etc, etc. But not everyone can.

Long Travel IFS:
Blazeland kit $1150.00
HD Torsion bars $250.00
Shocks $100.00
Low-buck HD idler set-up $150.00
RCV CV assemblies $1600.00
Total: $3300.00
Labor: complete bolt-in, no cutting or welding required, you can easily do this in a weekend.

So about double when you do the full meal deal. Of course if you have mad fab skills and the equipment, you can extend your own LT arms and build your own HD idler parts for less.

We are just finishing up a 4Wheel Underground front 3 link kit on my son's LA rig and with the links and coil-overs, he should be able to do a lot better on the trail. We're guessing the IFS will still do better on the fast stuff and he'll do better in the rock crawling; guess we'll find out soon enough. Of course we've now increased the price of his build quite a bit, but a link suspension is the way to go if you are serious about building a hard core live axle'd rig.

One last thing I want to add is that the Blazeland kit is the low buck way to do the IFS, there is the Total Chaos and JD Fab LT kits that are top end and designed to take desert racing abuse.