ARK_SWAMP_RIDER

I just purchased a 88 Pickup, and the day after I brought it home it wouldn't crank. None of the lights will come on, battery is totally dead. I jump start it and it runs fine all day long. Day 2, same thing. So, now I'm trying to find out what's causing the battery drain. I'm new to this so wasn't sure what to do. Went to Advance Auto and had them check the battery, alternator, and starter and according to them, everything was good. Found a threadhere that suggested disconnecting the positive terminal and measuring current draw between the terminal and battery post. I did this with my cheap little multi-meter and it maxed it out. One by one I pulled the fuses in the box under the hood, no change. I then disconnected the wire going from the + post on the battery to the under hood fuse box, and the reading dropped to the minimum. So it seems something in the fuse box is causing the drain, but I have no idea what. I was able to pull everything except one in the far right of the pic, which I believe is a fusible link. Not sure how this one comes out, it was stuck in there and I couldn't pull it by hand. Does anyone have any idea what the problem may be or suggestions on how to further diagnose? Really hoping to get this fixed soon, not really how I hoped to spend my first few days with the new ride. Thanks.

RAD4Runner

Maxed out is ho many amps?
Minimum is how many amps?

Disconnecting that wire between battery + and fuse box just disconnected everything from battery, so you will have no current at all. That is the Fusible link.

Possible that alternator has a bad rectifier diode, and it drains your battery. Try:
Reconnect Fusible link back to battery connector,
Disconnect alternator-to-battery wire (Thick white wire on big screw terminal)
Measure current draw.

OR:
Fully charge your battery,
Reconnect everything,
Disconnect alternator-to-battery wire
Leave overnight- same conditions that drained battery,
Check in the morning.

RAS86

Remember, the auto-shops test the units under no load. To include your starter and your alternator.

To check if your alternator isn't charging the battery (because that's what it sounds like) after you've started your truck, disconnect the negative terminal. If your truck is still running, then the alternator is doing it's job, by -recharging the battery, and holding it's charge, if not then your alternator is obviously not doing it's job. Should be any where from $90 - $100 bucks for a refurbished one.

I've had these problems with both my 22RE's and KA24's. Sometimes we get into detailing and over thinking the simplest thing, after the fact we've done all that unnecessary work. I've pulled out the alternator, cleaned the life out of it, did what any one would do just to save a few bucks, come to find out, some times you'll just need to replace an oldie for a newbie.

If you got an amp running your sound system, need to check if there's a direct power (always hot) line connected straight to the battery. Meaning while your truck is turned off, your amp is still on. That could really drain your battery overnight.

Check for any signs of corrosion, replace cables if necessary. (Do not use Coke-a-cola as a temporary fix, just replace the damn thing) Also, check your ground, from terminal to chassis (or any good source for ground) could be a loose nut allowing the connector to move back and forth during mobility.


Good Luck, friend.

SoCal4Running

Did you pull the fuses in the drivers kick panel?
Lots more to check.

Any accessory wires running off the battery to who knows where?

The fuse link that you can't remove is bolted to the battery wires and other end is bolted to main harness wire. You have to remove the 3 bolts holding down the fuse box and push the fuse link out the bottom to get at its bolts. There are little pryable tabs on the fuse link that hold it in the box.

ARK_SWAMP_RIDER

Honestly I'm not sure what maxxed out is. I've got just a basic analog meter and don't really know how to read it. It's got 4 settings for mA: .5, 10, 250, and 1.5V. On each one of them it was maxxing it out (10, 50, or 250 I believe). I was trying to measure it now and I managed to blow the fuse in the meter, so until I can get a new fuse (or maybe new meter that's easier to read), I'll try the second option you listed. If it were a bad rectifier diode, would the alternator still work properly under normal driving conditions? The battery charges up, just goes dead if it's not drove every few hours.

Refer to my previous comment. Once I jump start the truck and let it run for a few minutes, it cranks no problem so it seems to me the alternator is fine. I did as you mentioned and with it running removed the negative terminal from the battery, and it continued to idle.

I don't have an amp, although there is an aftermarket head unit installed (by the previous owner) and I believe it's connected directly to the battery. The radio goes of with the key though, so not sure that would be causing the drain. I'll either find out by trail and error or will test it when I get a new fuse for my multi-meter.

I will check the grounds, although since it cranks perfectly fine as long as it doesn't sit more than a few hours, I don't that it'd be a ground.


Let me follow up all these comments by saying I'm a newbie to this type of stuff so my assumptions could very well be incorrect.

ARK_SWAMP_RIDER

Here are the results from the test that was performed at Advance Auto, maybe it will help. It does note the charging system is operating at high voltage. They did tests with and without load.

Fatslobb

Sorry, not a mind reader. Which engine do you have? When measuring automotive currents you are usually dealing in AMPS, or 10's of AMPS. An mA meter is a waste of time and dangerous, as it could start a fire when it burns out. A modest petrol motor will not need a big battery, but even a small diesel will. A 2.8L diesel will need at least ~500CCA to spin it, and the default battery is 660CCA. Even then you might only get 90 seconds cranking to start it b4 it's too flat. Is there a date or time stamp on the battery? Has it been subject to intense cold, particularly recently? What is the acid's specific gravity? Has the battery been subjected to violence/vibration? The CCA is well down, and it may not be able to crank the motor on its own. Quality batteries normally last 4-5 yrs if only mild frosts. Cadmium Sulphite additive will extend the life of a normal battery which is subjected to periods of storage/low activity. Everyday use is less improved. Its use helps retard the process of suphation of the battery plates-a white paste which reduces effective plate area, thus reducing the capacity of the battery to accept charge, and increasing the internal resistance-which dramatically reduces the available output current. Battery agencies will say it doesn't work to protect their sales. It does work, and for the few $$, it makes life easier. NB cannot use on maintenance-free batteries. The 4 yr warranty battery is usually a con. It's a 2 yr battery with a different label and costs more for the pro-rata privilige-so why pay extra for the same battery-even if it fails at 2 yrs, you still lose out. Yuasa are the only Asian battery I trust, nothing else Asian appears worthwhile, but even they are getting degraded now. Quality Australian and US made batteries are expensive and last-the use of CdSO3(?) is legitimate to help them last longer. Recycling the wastes is more difficult. 7 to ten yrs is not unusual.

Fatslobb

BTW, if you want to know if your car is faulty, charge the battery, and connect it at night. Turn everything off, and remove and strike the EARTH terminal on the battery. Sparks indicate current flow-should not normally occur UNLESS something is turned on. Big spark, big current and vv. If you hear a spark, its a large current. WARNING: Will ignite petrol/LPG fumes!!!!!!!!

Fatslobb

The battery is down 25% of capacity-perhaps just flat. The cranking voltage [8V] is normal IFF it was not produced by the tester, but by an actual starter engagement. The recovery is poor. The tester says check belt tensions, and make sure battery is not too small for job. The charging voltages appear ok. Clean your battery connections-the posts and the insides of the terminals which contact them. if cheap wrap around steel clamps--discard them. use ONLY brass pinch connectors, and ONLY do them tight enough to just stop them slipping on the posts. Do NOT overtighten/distort!!!! The best ones seem to have 2 small bolts holding a cable clamp plate for the main cables. with starters [& chargers] EVERY connection MUST be clean and firm, having a large contact area and thickness. Petroleum jelly is permitted on battery posts if joint is first very clean and tight. Do NOT use WD40 here, it is an insulator and difficult to remove.

Fatslobb

Final thought-the ripple is uneven/irregular-suggests bad/sticking brushes at near end of life on old car==poor charging. The battery is too weak to start the car from cold, but can hold/pick up enough charge to do hot starts. battery is not being well recharged during day-short runs? and when the motor cools it still lacks the grunt to crank it again. Most petrol 4cyl car batteries require >10min running to recover from each [cold] start, diesels 15-30min. Hot restart does not always mean battery has recovered spent charge, just means the job is easier. Repeat test of running motor@ 1500rpm with battery disconnected, turn on all lights, fans, a/c and horn - if motor (or anything else) falters at all, alternator is inadequate. NB these old cars had weak alternators, often inadequate for adverse conditions. Make sure your not overloading it.

ARK_SWAMP_RIDER

I will check the fuses in the kick panel, just gotta get a multi meter that will work first. It sounds like mine isn't up to the task.

I just bought the truck, so I don't know a lot on the history. It's a 22RE. It's been registered in Arkansas it's whole life so shouldn't have been in extreme cold. Can't answer the other questions.

The only add on that's connected strait to the battery is a 12V outlet. I pulled the fuse for this and left it overnight, still had the drain. On the alternator, do I need to take the wire off the top, or unplug the harness at the back (or both) to test the drain there?

Once I jump start the truck and let it run for 1-2 minutes, it does fine the rest of the day. It's just that initial start that is troublesome.

Thanks for the input/suggestions.

Fatslobb

could be a bad starter, but more likely the batt is just not charging, or there is a drain or combination. disconnect at main terminal on alternator-will prevent any output going anywhere, disconnecting at rear disconnects the brushes==no output at all. do both to test if battery discharging into alternator overnight. The car is OLD. Alternator and starter brushes and bearings are normally needed about now. battery is only abt 3/4 capacity on the test, that might be just enough to crank it-but it's getting down. If it's only flat, rather than deteriorated, then a working charging system should bring it well up in abt 30 min. Which is cheaper, a battery or an alternator? you may need both, but without proper testing, choose the cheaper one and see if that fixes it. BTW, does it run ok with the booster battery installed instead of the actual battery that's there now? If it runs a week or so, then you know your battery was bad, if not, you know you have a vehicle fault-maybe a weak alternator, maybe a short. Check your belt tensions and run with most accessories and lights off to reduce load on alternator so it can charge if it will. Electrics are difficult for amateurs, and distance makes it hard to diagnose better than that. I need u to prove that the battery is or is not discharging overnight. that means measuring the everything turned off and connected voltage abt an hour after shutdown, and again 1st thing in the morning. variation should be < 0.25V/24hrs if using analog meter, align eye so that needle is minimally reflected in the mirror for accuracy-parallax error elimination. Read with needle in mid scale range if possible. Digital meter will be quite accurate, remember to set scale first to be greater than expected voltage. 20-25V DC [----] ideal. NB keep battery top clean and dry to prevent tracking. report back pls.

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

It might be time to seek help.

Someplace your having a power draw. Glove compartment light on all the time??

You are turning the ignition switch off ??
Having a worn Lock Cylinder will allow one to pull the key out while the switch is still on

Shops not used to Toyota`s or younger helpers were great at doing this to me.

ARK_SWAMP_RIDER

This is a secondary vehicle, not something I will drive every day. I live 2 miles from work, so when I do drive it, it's not very far so it never allows the battery to be fully recharged by the alternator. I don't have a charger, so I've been unable to fully charge the battery. Also, the AC doesn't work currently so it stays off, and I don't drive at night so never use the headlights. Only accessory would be the radio.

Several hours ago I removed the wire connected to the top of the alternator. I left the bigger plug that connects to the rear connected. I will see what happens in the morning, but so far I can't tell that there's been any drain at all.

I am turning the ignition switch off. The key can be removed while still in the on position, but I do double check that it's off.

I really appreciate the input. I'd really like to solve this on my own so I can learn about my new rig, which is why I haven't already taken it somewhere to be checked out.

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

First not being able to completely charge the battery is not good.

This battery might be on the borderline for holding a charge although other wise it checks out. I have had in the past batteries discharge just from old and cooked ground cables.

This at no time had a alarm they are great for doing strange things

All connections clean and tight .

Get yourself a digital multimeter take some readings

Good luck.

By help I meant from someone on here that is local that you can pay with lunch or the malt beverage of choice

ARK_SWAMP_RIDER

Yesterday around 6 PM I disconnected the wire on top of the alternator. Let it sit overnight, and it cranked right up this morning. So I guess the next step is to replace the alternator and see how that takes care of the problem. I'll have to do some research to see what to go with, but once I get that swapped out I'll post back with an update. Thanks everyone!

Rikoshay

My first post here.

I work for a company that rebuilds a majority of the Import starters and alternators sold in the US. We sell to everybody and are the OE rebuilder that won the bid with Hitachi a few years ago.

Anyway, DO NOT disconnect the battery with the engine running. This is called a "Load Dump" and it's not good on electronics to spike abunch of amps.

My company sells to Advance Auto (and every other retailer). The ripple voltage indicated on the print out shows that there is a bad diode.

The "No Load" charging is pretty darn high, so this means that the alternator is trying to charge the battery instead of "maintaining the charge" of the battery.

Also 10.34V while cranking is dangerously low. Rule of thumb is that the computer won't fire the fuel injectors at 10V or below. You are right on the edge of a (slow) "crank but no start" condition.

A healthy battery should be 12.6 Volts.

From a brief overview it looks like you will need to replace the alternator.I would put a battery charger on and let it charge for a couple hours.

I've been in parking lots of retail stores and seen employees do the tests and observe that the battery has a pile of corrosion on the terminals, which invalidates the entire test. Meanwhile the employee proceeds with the test and of course the readings are bad (duh??).

I don't care how good the terminals look, remove the Pos/Neg terminals and clean them with a brush.

After you replace the alternator and clean/charge the battery take it back to Advance and have them run the test. Alternators and batteries are a married couple, if one is bad the other is most likely bad also. You may very well be looking at replacing the battery shortly after the new alternator.

Fatslobb

I agree the alternator is faulty. IFF your handy and you have the tools, a DIY repair is <$40- unless the regulator or rectifiers are involved. A used replacement is prob not any better than existing. Industrial power diodes are <$5- ea? but fitting them may be beyond your skills/toolset. I was assuming there wasn't an EMU in the vehicle, so I considered it 'safe' to disconnect the battery whilst running. It's not good practice, but it can help sort things, or fry them more fully.

ARK_SWAMP_RIDER

I'm thinking about taking this as an opportunity to upgrade to a HO alternator. I've looked at the GM swap, but not sure I want to go there. I found a bolt on 140 amp alternator, it's pricey but probably what I'll go with. I will be adding lights, sound system, and most likely a winch at some point so I figure it will be needed anyway. Several folks have suggested cleaning/replacing connections, so I'm thinking the big 3 upgrade with the HO alternator should totally resolve my issues and prepare for the future mods.

Rikoshay

Voltage Dumps are hard on the alternator, probably not good on the rest of the electronics either.

It's a good way to blow diodes and regulators. We have a machine where we do "Volt Dump" tests. It's got a big Frankenstein lever switch that is used to break the circuit.

Newer alternators that are PCM controlled are a lot more fragile.