Beware at the Pump: E15 Ethanol approved by the EPA
10-27-2014, 03:50 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Beware at the Pump: E15 Ethanol approved by the EPA
EPA just approved E15 ethanol: https://homes.yahoo.com/news/owners-...163000487.html
Bottom line, this could cause fuel line integrity and fuel filter issues for all of our trucks. And will result in reduced MPGs.
For your air cooled small engines (anything w/o a liquid cooled radiator), avoid it like the plague...
On background from my previous ramblings:
Bottom line, this could cause fuel line integrity and fuel filter issues for all of our trucks. And will result in reduced MPGs.
For your air cooled small engines (anything w/o a liquid cooled radiator), avoid it like the plague...
On background from my previous ramblings:
Totally agree with the ethanol bashing.
Gamefreak -- just want to clarifythat you likely have ethanol in your gas. I think EPA requires 10% blend right now and wants to up it to 15%. Ethanol replaced MTBE. Just because it's not the E85, 85% ethanol fuel doesn't mean that 10% ethanol isn't causing the same problems, jsut more slowly.
Car manufacturers overwhelmingly oppose new EPA-approved E15 fuel http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/06/ca...oved-e15-fuel/
AAA warns against E15 ethanol fuel http://www.upi.com/Business_News/201...5331354316401/
Gamefreak -- just want to clarifythat you likely have ethanol in your gas. I think EPA requires 10% blend right now and wants to up it to 15%. Ethanol replaced MTBE. Just because it's not the E85, 85% ethanol fuel doesn't mean that 10% ethanol isn't causing the same problems, jsut more slowly.
Car manufacturers overwhelmingly oppose new EPA-approved E15 fuel http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/06/ca...oved-e15-fuel/
AAA warns against E15 ethanol fuel http://www.upi.com/Business_News/201...5331354316401/
Ethanol is a one of my many nemisises...
Are you talking about E85 vs standard gasoline?
In short, ethanol is a solvent. Even with standard gasoline, ethanol likes to separate from the gasoline, and it's hard to keep the ethanol percent consistent throughout an entire tank (at the station, not yours). Ethanol also likes to absorb water, which is another issue in and of itself.
The primary problem with our rigs is that ethanol is a solvent. And that's a problem with both the internals and with dissolving our rubber hoses, gaskets, etc, in our fuel lines not made for ethanol (even with current vehicles, European and Asian automakers say using the E15 the EPA/environuts/grain farmers want to mandate/shove down our throats instead of the current mandated E10 will void vehicle warranties. The E85 is 8.5 times the amount of ethanol that automakers say is w/in warranty. If your rig isn't "flex fuel", don't run E85...
With E85 if never run before, it has a tendency to dissolve all of the varnish and other crud in your fuel lines and deposit it in and clog up your fuel filter and injectors. Also, our trucks weren't manufactured to run solvent through our fuel lines, so running E85 will send bit of fuel line and other rubber/plastic components down your fuel line to engine until those parts ultimately fail with a fuel leak... If you're having issues after E85, that's your answer. Run a good fuel injector cleaner like redline to try and clean those out. Change out your fuel filter. And plan to change out all your soft fuel lines soon as well (dropping your fuel tank, cleaning it out, and replacing your fuel pump shouldn't be too far down your to do list either -- even without ethanol, our fuel pumps are at their end of life as is the fuel pump pre-filter).
Are you talking about E85 vs standard gasoline?
In short, ethanol is a solvent. Even with standard gasoline, ethanol likes to separate from the gasoline, and it's hard to keep the ethanol percent consistent throughout an entire tank (at the station, not yours). Ethanol also likes to absorb water, which is another issue in and of itself.
The primary problem with our rigs is that ethanol is a solvent. And that's a problem with both the internals and with dissolving our rubber hoses, gaskets, etc, in our fuel lines not made for ethanol (even with current vehicles, European and Asian automakers say using the E15 the EPA/environuts/grain farmers want to mandate/shove down our throats instead of the current mandated E10 will void vehicle warranties. The E85 is 8.5 times the amount of ethanol that automakers say is w/in warranty. If your rig isn't "flex fuel", don't run E85...
With E85 if never run before, it has a tendency to dissolve all of the varnish and other crud in your fuel lines and deposit it in and clog up your fuel filter and injectors. Also, our trucks weren't manufactured to run solvent through our fuel lines, so running E85 will send bit of fuel line and other rubber/plastic components down your fuel line to engine until those parts ultimately fail with a fuel leak... If you're having issues after E85, that's your answer. Run a good fuel injector cleaner like redline to try and clean those out. Change out your fuel filter. And plan to change out all your soft fuel lines soon as well (dropping your fuel tank, cleaning it out, and replacing your fuel pump shouldn't be too far down your to do list either -- even without ethanol, our fuel pumps are at their end of life as is the fuel pump pre-filter).
You bet. And though it's cheaper than regular gasoline, we're subsidizing ethanol through our taxes/gov't spending (a lot of that is being borrowed to pay back later) to the tune of actually costing us/us actually paying 1.5 times to 2 times whatever the pump price is...
And we're also paying for all of this ethanol fuel in a lot of other ways that are as easily accounted for, like more expensive non-grain crops and much more expensive meat prices (fields that used to grow other crops get diverted to more profitable corn raising those prices/and high demand for corn that used to be one of the cheapest crops and go to animal feed is now expensive and still used for animal feed but the price increase has led to much less of it going for such despite so much more being grown as farmers are breeding fewer animals due to increase feed prices eroding what little profit there was in raising livestock, also increasing prices due to increased meat scarcity beyond just the cost increase in lb per meat produced...). And that's why animal feces are now being fed to other animals as feed in a lot of conventional farming etc -- trying to get all the nutritional value out feed before it's composted (cow crap to hogs, hog crap to chickens, chicken and other animal bone meal and carcass byproducts back into initial feed blends, etc). Pretty disgusting when you think about it (and I grew up as a farm kid in the farm belt in 4-H and all the rest so am pretty in touch w/ my Ag roots)...
Should also mention that ethanol burns hotter than gasoline too due to add'l oxygen atoms in the molecular structure -- heat being the last thing our engines need more of.
And lastly, that when accounting for the energy actually contained in a gallon of ethanol/E85 versus the energy contained in a gallon of standard gasoline w/ 10% ethanol, you get a heck of lot less energy. Standard gasoline 10% E blend (111,836 btus/gal) vs E85 blend (81,800 btus/gal) -- standard gasoline has 37% more energy than the E85/ E85 has only 73% of the energy of standard gas blend. However you want to look at it.
And we're also paying for all of this ethanol fuel in a lot of other ways that are as easily accounted for, like more expensive non-grain crops and much more expensive meat prices (fields that used to grow other crops get diverted to more profitable corn raising those prices/and high demand for corn that used to be one of the cheapest crops and go to animal feed is now expensive and still used for animal feed but the price increase has led to much less of it going for such despite so much more being grown as farmers are breeding fewer animals due to increase feed prices eroding what little profit there was in raising livestock, also increasing prices due to increased meat scarcity beyond just the cost increase in lb per meat produced...). And that's why animal feces are now being fed to other animals as feed in a lot of conventional farming etc -- trying to get all the nutritional value out feed before it's composted (cow crap to hogs, hog crap to chickens, chicken and other animal bone meal and carcass byproducts back into initial feed blends, etc). Pretty disgusting when you think about it (and I grew up as a farm kid in the farm belt in 4-H and all the rest so am pretty in touch w/ my Ag roots)...
Should also mention that ethanol burns hotter than gasoline too due to add'l oxygen atoms in the molecular structure -- heat being the last thing our engines need more of.
And lastly, that when accounting for the energy actually contained in a gallon of ethanol/E85 versus the energy contained in a gallon of standard gasoline w/ 10% ethanol, you get a heck of lot less energy. Standard gasoline 10% E blend (111,836 btus/gal) vs E85 blend (81,800 btus/gal) -- standard gasoline has 37% more energy than the E85/ E85 has only 73% of the energy of standard gas blend. However you want to look at it.
Totally agree with the ethanol bashing.
Gamefreak -- just want to clarifythat you likely have ethanol in your gas. I think EPA requires 10% blend right now and wants to up it to 15%. Ethanol replaced MTBE. Just because it's not the E85, 85% ethanol fuel doesn't mean that 10% ethanol isn't causing the same problems, jsut more slowly.
Car manufacturers overwhelmingly oppose new EPA-approved E15 fuel http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/06/ca...oved-e15-fuel/
AAA warns against E15 ethanol fuel http://www.upi.com/Business_News/201...5331354316401/
Gamefreak -- just want to clarifythat you likely have ethanol in your gas. I think EPA requires 10% blend right now and wants to up it to 15%. Ethanol replaced MTBE. Just because it's not the E85, 85% ethanol fuel doesn't mean that 10% ethanol isn't causing the same problems, jsut more slowly.
Car manufacturers overwhelmingly oppose new EPA-approved E15 fuel http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/06/ca...oved-e15-fuel/
AAA warns against E15 ethanol fuel http://www.upi.com/Business_News/201...5331354316401/
The other thing that comes to mind is that you may have gotten some dirty fuel that really clogged your injectors -- or fuel that had waaaayyy too much ethanol in it (ethanol separating from gasoline in ground tanks is a well documented problem, and ethanol is a solvent which acts to clog up your fuel system -- ultimately "cleaning" your system but dumping most of that varnish/crud/etc into your injectors). That could explain I suppose, but not sure on that.
When's the last time you changed your fuel filter and ran a good injector cleaner like Redline, BG, or Amsoil through?
When's the last time you changed your fuel filter and ran a good injector cleaner like Redline, BG, or Amsoil through?
Last edited by RSR; 10-27-2014 at 03:51 PM.
10-27-2014, 04:51 PM
#2
That's nuts!
I saw a spot about using E15 in which auto and motorcycle manufacturers were stating they would not honor warranties if it was used in their vehicles.
E10 is already hard enough on older cars with carbs and rubber fuel lines.
I guess they just want everyone in an electric vehicle
Edit: Oops I guess you already know about the manufacturers and what they think about it.
I saw a spot about using E15 in which auto and motorcycle manufacturers were stating they would not honor warranties if it was used in their vehicles.
E10 is already hard enough on older cars with carbs and rubber fuel lines.
I guess they just want everyone in an electric vehicle
Edit: Oops I guess you already know about the manufacturers and what they think about it.
Last edited by Odin; 10-28-2014 at 05:22 AM.
10-27-2014, 06:36 PM
#3
Registered User
Why are these stupid EPA treehuggers pushing this when scientific data have proven ounce per ounce, ethanol E10 has less enrgy output versus pure gasoline which equates to more frequent fillups when drivng the same miles using E10. I thought they were into conserving gas but I guess the EPA sold out to the corn farmers like Archer Daniels Midland, ConAgra, etc.
10-27-2014, 07:29 PM
#4
Super Moderator
Staff
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Anderson Missouri
Posts: 11,788
Likes: 0
Received 25 Likes
on
22 Posts
As I understand it Missouri is required to sell a certain amount of ethanol. We now have gas stations advertising that the top fuel level is Ethanol Free. In Oklahoma and Arkansas, they advertise Etahanol Free gas in some of their lower grades. EPA just trying to justify a reason for existing
10-28-2014, 01:15 AM
#6
Why are these stupid EPA treehuggers pushing this when scientific data have proven ounce per ounce, ethanol E10 has less enrgy output versus pure gasoline which equates to more frequent fillups when drivng the same miles using E10. I thought they were into conserving gas but I guess the EPA sold out to the corn farmers like Archer Daniels Midland, ConAgra, etc.
The bad thing is- Given the same exact vehicle, who's to say we aren't putting out more of the undesired pollutants from the need to burn more fuel to get the same amount of miles traveled?
In some cases I'm sure the pollutant level is higher.
That sure is the way it seems if you aren't rich. I gotta tell ya I'm flat broke and already living an uneasy life.
Even with the greatest of incentives AND rebates there's no way I can afford payments on a new gas or electric vehicle with full insurance coverage.
And lets not speak about affording the dealership repairs to those vehicles.
Last edited by Odin; 10-28-2014 at 05:28 AM.
Trending Topics
10-29-2014, 04:35 AM
#8
Registered User
Thread Starter
For ~$200 you can replace your fuel pump and soft fuel lines with newer hoses/components and your fuel filter which should help protect you from this change. If your truck's fuel pump hasn't been replaced to date, it's due to prevent roadside breakdowns anyway...
Unfortunately, what the EPA and press don't talk about is that already ethanol likes to separate from the gas (part of why gas isn't piped like it used to be and instead mixed as locally as possible and then shipped in truck tankers [still sent from further away than it used to be]). What that means for end users is that your gas could have anywhere from 0-50+% ethanol depending on how long the underground tanks have been sitting... (This separation/inconsistent blends makes tuning VERY difficult.)
Ethanol also attracts water, so you could be pumping a lot of both ethanol and water into your tank, unknown to you until you have problems...
I run shell fuel as it has a more sophisticated blend w/ a lot of injector cleaners. Hoping their premium blend helps to cover me on ethanol consistencies too, but you never know.
End of the day, I suspect most E10 pumps become E15. Perhaps not, but I wouldn't count on it...
Unfortunately, what the EPA and press don't talk about is that already ethanol likes to separate from the gas (part of why gas isn't piped like it used to be and instead mixed as locally as possible and then shipped in truck tankers [still sent from further away than it used to be]). What that means for end users is that your gas could have anywhere from 0-50+% ethanol depending on how long the underground tanks have been sitting... (This separation/inconsistent blends makes tuning VERY difficult.)
Ethanol also attracts water, so you could be pumping a lot of both ethanol and water into your tank, unknown to you until you have problems...
I run shell fuel as it has a more sophisticated blend w/ a lot of injector cleaners. Hoping their premium blend helps to cover me on ethanol consistencies too, but you never know.
End of the day, I suspect most E10 pumps become E15. Perhaps not, but I wouldn't count on it...
10-29-2014, 11:14 PM
#9
Super Moderator
Staff
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Anderson Missouri
Posts: 11,788
Likes: 0
Received 25 Likes
on
22 Posts
I have been trying different oil companies and lately it has been Conoco. I seem to be getting the best mileage with them so far. I will say that I tried the premium fuel for the first time in a long time and I was disapointed in the mileage on that tank. But some of that could of been me hotrodding around trying to see if it run any better or more powerful. I did not have any noticeable difference.
I am sure they will have us to E90 someday.
I am sure they will have us to E90 someday.
11-02-2014, 08:34 PM
#10
Registered User
Hopefully when it comes to our neck of the woods, there'll be stations still selling E10, especially Costco which I normally fill up our trucks and car at. If not, hopefully the Tesoro station across Costco Waipio will still sell E0 which is what I get for our outdoor power equipment.
11-04-2014, 09:44 PM
#13
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://m.green.autoblog.com/2009/08/...l-in-gasoline/
We hate it, but it helps our planet.
Money and time out from us = planet for our descendants.
We hate it, but it helps our planet.
Money and time out from us = planet for our descendants.
11-04-2014, 10:08 PM
#14
Registered User
Ethanol made from food/animal feed crops like corn, wears out irrreplacable croplands, and subsidises giant corporations at the expense of all hungry people worldwide.
Nothing more than costly corporate welfare.
Any alcohol fuels that are truly economical will come from celulosic wastes.
Nothing more than costly corporate welfare.
Any alcohol fuels that are truly economical will come from celulosic wastes.
11-13-2014, 03:19 AM
#16
Registered User
Thread Starter
11-13-2014, 03:37 AM
#17
Registered User
Thread Starter
Let's start with the realization that cropland is finite. So land used to grow fuel (corn for ethanol) is not used to grow crops for food. So the price of all crops goes up. Americans, we only really notice that price in regards to the price of meat, which uses more grains to make a lb than what we usually buy in straight grain type products in the store. But overseas, where we ship a lot of our crops, that rise in cost of rice, beans, corn, wheat, etc, has caused a lot instability and strife, which we, America pay for through military spending and humanitarian aide...
Secondly, water is the nation's most precious resource. In the plains states -- pretty much everywhere more than 50 miles west of the Mississippi River to the Rockies is pumping from the Ogallala Aquifer, is growing corn using irrigation from water resources that are not being replaced and will never be within a 1000 (yes, w/in a thousand) years...
Further, ethanol uses a crap ton of water during production too. So it's a huge waste of water. Estimates range widely, the average is allegedly between 4-5 gallons of water per gallon ethanol produced per the ethanol industry (http://web.extension.illinois.edu/ethanol/wateruse.cfm). But the scientist range is between 263 to 784 liters per liter of ethanol (look at as multiples, unit of measurement doesn't matter since all to one unit of ethanol) with the wide ranges of 5 to 2,138 liters of water per liter of ethanol depending on where it is grown. http://www.technologyreview.com/news...rst-for-water/
Now in regards as to whether ethanol is good for the environment... The most gracious estimates are from +10%-20% on energy investment. IE, it takes 1 unit of petroleum fuel to produce 1.1 to 1.2 units of ethanol, based upon energy units (not sure if kelvins or what, you can look it up).
You have all the fuel for farming. You have the herbicides and pesticides that are carried in petroleum derived products to keep them applied to the plants. You have the fertilizer that is derived from natural gas. You have all the trucking and shipping the corn aroudn the country. You have all the trucking of the ethanol around the country (ethanol can't be carried in oil and gas pipelines due to absorbing water and corroding the lines)...
But the consensus is that at best ethanol is fuel neutral (inputs=outputs) to being a slight loser (inputs greater than outputs)...
At the end of the day, all the ethanol mandate is is a massive subsidy to grain farmers. And it's a subsidy extracted not only from American citizens but also from the worlds poorest -- both in dollars and lives lost due to hunger and strife...
It's truly sad and politicians supporting it are nuts, that is if they ever bothered to connect all the dots...
Secondly, water is the nation's most precious resource. In the plains states -- pretty much everywhere more than 50 miles west of the Mississippi River to the Rockies is pumping from the Ogallala Aquifer, is growing corn using irrigation from water resources that are not being replaced and will never be within a 1000 (yes, w/in a thousand) years...
Further, ethanol uses a crap ton of water during production too. So it's a huge waste of water. Estimates range widely, the average is allegedly between 4-5 gallons of water per gallon ethanol produced per the ethanol industry (http://web.extension.illinois.edu/ethanol/wateruse.cfm). But the scientist range is between 263 to 784 liters per liter of ethanol (look at as multiples, unit of measurement doesn't matter since all to one unit of ethanol) with the wide ranges of 5 to 2,138 liters of water per liter of ethanol depending on where it is grown. http://www.technologyreview.com/news...rst-for-water/
Now in regards as to whether ethanol is good for the environment... The most gracious estimates are from +10%-20% on energy investment. IE, it takes 1 unit of petroleum fuel to produce 1.1 to 1.2 units of ethanol, based upon energy units (not sure if kelvins or what, you can look it up).
You have all the fuel for farming. You have the herbicides and pesticides that are carried in petroleum derived products to keep them applied to the plants. You have the fertilizer that is derived from natural gas. You have all the trucking and shipping the corn aroudn the country. You have all the trucking of the ethanol around the country (ethanol can't be carried in oil and gas pipelines due to absorbing water and corroding the lines)...
But the consensus is that at best ethanol is fuel neutral (inputs=outputs) to being a slight loser (inputs greater than outputs)...
At the end of the day, all the ethanol mandate is is a massive subsidy to grain farmers. And it's a subsidy extracted not only from American citizens but also from the worlds poorest -- both in dollars and lives lost due to hunger and strife...
It's truly sad and politicians supporting it are nuts, that is if they ever bothered to connect all the dots...
Last edited by RSR; 11-13-2014 at 03:43 AM.
11-14-2014, 06:24 PM
#18
Registered User
Join Date: May 2012
Location: 91765
Posts: 591
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"It's truly sad and politicians supporting it are nuts, that is if they ever bothered to connect all the dots... "
The term politicians can be changed to stockholders and both sides are fighting for fills there pocket, Not for whats good for the world.
I see and hear this arguments from both sides always using the worst case scenarios of each product.
Both side so full of holes.
The term politicians can be changed to stockholders and both sides are fighting for fills there pocket, Not for whats good for the world.
I see and hear this arguments from both sides always using the worst case scenarios of each product.
Both side so full of holes.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
