Gearing swap
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Gearing swap
I'm no newbie to working on my Yota, but I've never had to do any differential work before, so I've got a couple questions. I'm planning on swapping out gears from the stock 3.58, to 4.56. Eventually putting 33" tires on the truck after a lift. I'm finding that most shops locally want up to $400 per axle to swap them out. It seems like there's something in there I could do myself.
I'm capable of handling most work, but even my Chilton says to stay away from ring and pinion gear adjustment. Could I just rip the third members out of each axle and take them to a shop to get the ring and pinion swapped out?
I'm capable of handling most work, but even my Chilton says to stay away from ring and pinion gear adjustment. Could I just rip the third members out of each axle and take them to a shop to get the ring and pinion swapped out?
#2
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ive been doing research on the same thing and if your going to get gears and run 33" tires wait and get 4.88's. might aswell get the best bang for your buck and do it right the first time!
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The reason I chose the combo of 33" tires and 4.56 gears, is to keep it as close to stock ratios as possible. 4.56 gearing over stock, is a 27% increase. 33" tires are a 17% decrease over stock. Making the net change (tires & gearing) only about 10% higher than stock. With 4.88 gears, I'll end up being 19% higher than stock. That means, my RPMs are 19% higher. Thinking about that, that's a change to 3k of 600 RPMs. Where I would sit at 3k, I will now sit much closer to 4 (with 4.88). 4.88 literally doubles the percentage increase in gearing from 4.56, based on stock.
But then again, I read a lot that only 95 and 96 Tacomas had the 3.58 gears. I just want to make sure I still get good highway mileage, but have the gearing to tow a light trailer (right now I'm runing 31.6" tires on the stock gears, and it's not too bad). The majority of mileage on this truck is winter mountain highways, with the occasional light tow or off-road.
#5
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Interesting you say that, because I've been doing a lot of research on this.
The reason I chose the combo of 33" tires and 4.56 gears, is to keep it as close to stock ratios as possible. 4.56 gearing over stock, is a 27% increase. 33" tires are a 17% decrease over stock. Making the net change (tires & gearing) only about 10% higher than stock. With 4.88 gears, I'll end up being 19% higher than stock. That means, my RPMs are 19% higher. Thinking about that, that's a change to 3k of 600 RPMs. Where I would sit at 3k, I will now sit much closer to 4 (with 4.88). 4.88 literally doubles the percentage increase in gearing from 4.56, based on stock.
But then again, I read a lot that only 95 and 96 Tacomas had the 3.58 gears. I just want to make sure I still get good highway mileage, but have the gearing to tow a light trailer (right now I'm runing 31.6" tires on the stock gears, and it's not too bad). The majority of mileage on this truck is winter mountain highways, with the occasional light tow or off-road.
The reason I chose the combo of 33" tires and 4.56 gears, is to keep it as close to stock ratios as possible. 4.56 gearing over stock, is a 27% increase. 33" tires are a 17% decrease over stock. Making the net change (tires & gearing) only about 10% higher than stock. With 4.88 gears, I'll end up being 19% higher than stock. That means, my RPMs are 19% higher. Thinking about that, that's a change to 3k of 600 RPMs. Where I would sit at 3k, I will now sit much closer to 4 (with 4.88). 4.88 literally doubles the percentage increase in gearing from 4.56, based on stock.
But then again, I read a lot that only 95 and 96 Tacomas had the 3.58 gears. I just want to make sure I still get good highway mileage, but have the gearing to tow a light trailer (right now I'm runing 31.6" tires on the stock gears, and it's not too bad). The majority of mileage on this truck is winter mountain highways, with the occasional light tow or off-road.
Toyota engineers were drunk when they put 3.58's in those early Tacomas. I ran 5.29's on 33's with my 2.7 single cab (with ~300 extra pounds of armor) and could pull 20MPG on the highway if I stayed at or just under 70. The engine was taching at around 3250..
The difference between 4.56's and 4.88's is only 250RPMS. And I'm sure you'll be thankful for that extra bit of power.
You said you've done research, and it sounds like it (kudos), but have you played around with the Grimm Jeeper gearing calculator?
With 4.56's & 33's you'll be at 2763@ 70 in 5th gear.
With 4.88's & 33's you'll be at 2956@ 70 in 5th gear.
Mileage isn't solely dependent on engine RPM's. It also has a lot to do with throttle position. And throttle position is decreased when torque is increased. Make sense?
It's your truck though. Good luck.
#6
If the front and rear 3rd members are the same then there would be no need to do anything except take the ones you don't want out and put the other ones in. That should be the case for the front axle atleast, since it's likely to be the same type(7.5" IFS).
If your installing new gears(or used ring and pinion sets without their differentials/3rds)then setup/install kits will be required for both the front and rear axles. You'll need the kit for the pinion gear shims and backlash adjustment shims to be able to set the pinion gear depth and ring gear backlash correctly. The kit, depending on it's type shim set or master, will also include new bearings and a new crush sleave or solid pinion spacer. Other requirements for gear setup will be a dial indicator to set the ring gear backlash, and a pull scale/gauge to set the pinion bearing pre-load. Carrier bearing pre-load can't be set on shim adjustment type diffs(7.5" IFS and the newer T100/Tundra/Tacoma 8" rear).
For more specific information on Toyota differentials see the link below.
http://home.4x4wire.com/erik/diffs/
If your installing new gears(or used ring and pinion sets without their differentials/3rds)then setup/install kits will be required for both the front and rear axles. You'll need the kit for the pinion gear shims and backlash adjustment shims to be able to set the pinion gear depth and ring gear backlash correctly. The kit, depending on it's type shim set or master, will also include new bearings and a new crush sleave or solid pinion spacer. Other requirements for gear setup will be a dial indicator to set the ring gear backlash, and a pull scale/gauge to set the pinion bearing pre-load. Carrier bearing pre-load can't be set on shim adjustment type diffs(7.5" IFS and the newer T100/Tundra/Tacoma 8" rear).
For more specific information on Toyota differentials see the link below.
http://home.4x4wire.com/erik/diffs/
Last edited by MudHippy; 11-15-2010 at 02:27 PM. Reason: Misinformation presented
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If the front and rear 3rd members are the same then there would be no need to do anything except take the ones you don't want out and put the other ones in. That should be the case for the front axle atleast, since it's likely to be the same type(7.5" IFS).
If the rear 3rd member with the 4.56 gears is different, say an older 8", then that would require setting the ring and pinion up in the diff you have. That's not so simple as just swapping the ring and pinion gears though. It's still possible to do the swap, but will require a differential/ring and pinion gear setup/install kit for that specific 3rd member to do it correctly. You'll need the kit for the pinion gear shims and backlash adjustment shims to be able to set the pinion gear depth and ring gear backlash correctly. The kit, depending on it's type shim set or master, will also include new bearings and a new crush sleave or solid pinion spacer. Other requirements for gear setup will be a dial indicator to set the ring gear backlash, and a pull scale/gauge to set the pinion bearing pre-load. Carrier bearing pre-load can't be set on shim adjustment type diffs(7.5" IFS and the newer T100/Sequoia/Tacoma 8" rear).
For more specific information on Toyota differentials see the link below.
http://home.4x4wire.com/erik/diffs/
If the rear 3rd member with the 4.56 gears is different, say an older 8", then that would require setting the ring and pinion up in the diff you have. That's not so simple as just swapping the ring and pinion gears though. It's still possible to do the swap, but will require a differential/ring and pinion gear setup/install kit for that specific 3rd member to do it correctly. You'll need the kit for the pinion gear shims and backlash adjustment shims to be able to set the pinion gear depth and ring gear backlash correctly. The kit, depending on it's type shim set or master, will also include new bearings and a new crush sleave or solid pinion spacer. Other requirements for gear setup will be a dial indicator to set the ring gear backlash, and a pull scale/gauge to set the pinion bearing pre-load. Carrier bearing pre-load can't be set on shim adjustment type diffs(7.5" IFS and the newer T100/Sequoia/Tacoma 8" rear).
For more specific information on Toyota differentials see the link below.
http://home.4x4wire.com/erik/diffs/
What do you mean when you say "If the front and rear 3rd members are the same"? I know they aren't the same, because as you said, front is 7.5" reverse, and rear is 8". They are both completely stock, and have never been serviced as far as I can tell.
I'd like to stay away from the difficult adjustments of the ring and pinion gear, but could I just pull the third members out, take them to a shop, and have them swap out the ring and pinion? And if so, with 230k miles, isn't it worth it to replace the rest of the components and not just the ring and pinion?
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#8
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Theres no real such thing as getting back to stock. Once you add lift, decrease wind resistance, and add taller and heavier tires the engine has to work harder to just move the truck.
Toyota engineers were drunk when they put 3.58's in those early Tacomas. I ran 5.29's on 33's with my 2.7 single cab (with ~300 extra pounds of armor) and could pull 20MPG on the highway if I stayed at or just under 70. The engine was taching at around 3250..
The difference between 4.56's and 4.88's is only 250RPMS. And I'm sure you'll be thankful for that extra bit of power.
You said you've done research, and it sounds like it (kudos), but have you played around with the Grimm Jeeper gearing calculator?
With 4.56's & 33's you'll be at 2763@ 70 in 5th gear.
With 4.88's & 33's you'll be at 2956@ 70 in 5th gear.
Mileage isn't solely dependent on engine RPM's. It also has a lot to do with throttle position. And throttle position is decreased when torque is increased. Make sense?
It's your truck though. Good luck.
Toyota engineers were drunk when they put 3.58's in those early Tacomas. I ran 5.29's on 33's with my 2.7 single cab (with ~300 extra pounds of armor) and could pull 20MPG on the highway if I stayed at or just under 70. The engine was taching at around 3250..
The difference between 4.56's and 4.88's is only 250RPMS. And I'm sure you'll be thankful for that extra bit of power.
You said you've done research, and it sounds like it (kudos), but have you played around with the Grimm Jeeper gearing calculator?
With 4.56's & 33's you'll be at 2763@ 70 in 5th gear.
With 4.88's & 33's you'll be at 2956@ 70 in 5th gear.
Mileage isn't solely dependent on engine RPM's. It also has a lot to do with throttle position. And throttle position is decreased when torque is increased. Make sense?
It's your truck though. Good luck.
#9
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I'd like to stay away from the difficult adjustments of the ring and pinion gear, but could I just pull the third members out, take them to a shop, and have them swap out the ring and pinion? And if so, with 230k miles, isn't it worth it to replace the rest of the components and not just the ring and pinion?
They can ship you built 3rd members. You simply pull your differentials, swap them out for the new ones and ship your old ones back.
If you don't want to deal with shipping then a shop should be able to set up thirds for $150 each if you bring in the differentials. Maybe try Addicted Offroad. I know hes in Colorado.
BTW. If you have a non TRD, non Elocker open rear end then you have a 'Tacoma/Tundra/T100 8.4" ' rear end.
Not an 8"
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Call East Coast Gear Supply.
They can ship you built 3rd members. You simply pull your differentials, swap them out for the new ones and ship your old ones back.
If you don't want to deal with shipping then a shop should be able to set up thirds for $150 each if you bring in the differentials. Maybe try Addicted Offroad. I know hes in Colorado.
BTW. If you have a non TRD, non Elocker open rear end then you have a 'Tacoma/Tundra/T100 8.4" ' rear end.
Not an 8"
They can ship you built 3rd members. You simply pull your differentials, swap them out for the new ones and ship your old ones back.
If you don't want to deal with shipping then a shop should be able to set up thirds for $150 each if you bring in the differentials. Maybe try Addicted Offroad. I know hes in Colorado.
BTW. If you have a non TRD, non Elocker open rear end then you have a 'Tacoma/Tundra/T100 8.4" ' rear end.
Not an 8"
This is the info I needed. I'm sure I can install the 3rd without issue.
#11
What do you mean when you say "If the front and rear 3rd members are the same"? I know they aren't the same, because as you said, front is 7.5" reverse, and rear is 8". They are both completely stock, and have never been serviced as far as I can tell.
I'd like to stay away from the difficult adjustments of the ring and pinion gear, but could I just pull the third members out, take them to a shop, and have them swap out the ring and pinion? And if so, with 230k miles, isn't it worth it to replace the rest of the components and not just the ring and pinion?
I'd like to stay away from the difficult adjustments of the ring and pinion gear, but could I just pull the third members out, take them to a shop, and have them swap out the ring and pinion? And if so, with 230k miles, isn't it worth it to replace the rest of the components and not just the ring and pinion?
2. Ring and pinion adjustment isn't difficult at all. It just requires special tools and instructions on how to use them. It actually VERY simple compared to engine building, or most engine work for that matter.
3. Replace all the components? Worth it? It might be, depending on what a dollar is worth to you. But there's alot more to a differential than just the ring and pinion and the bearings too. There's also side gears, spider gears, and all the shims for those as well. It's usually best to replace just what needs to be. Most things in the differential, including the all the gears(R&P,side,spider), shims, and bearings, will last the life of the vehicle(gear oil not included). It's not unheard of for a differential to go 1,000,000 miles without servicing any of those components. It depends on how it's been used/abused.
All 2wd and 4wd T100's, '00-06 Tundra's, and ?? Sequoia's use a newer/stronger 8" 2-pinion diff. Tacoma 4x4's and Tacoma PreRunner's that don't come with the electric locker (aka "non-TRD), as well as V6 Tacoma 4x2's also came with this diff.
This diff commonly and mistakenly called an 8.4" or 8.25" diff, possibly to imply its extra strength. The ring gear actually measures 8". The extra strength of this diff comes from the bearing cap/truss and large diameter pinion gear shaft.
This diff cannot be fitted to an older style 8" axle because it uses a larger diameter mounting bolt pattern and because more space inside the housing necessary to accommodate the large bearing cap. The different bolt pattern also makes it very impractical to swap in an electric locking Toyota diff (the whole mounting flange would have to be re-done using a special jig).
- Carrier bearing truss and newer housing adds significant strength over V6 and 4cyl diffs
- Uses V6 carrier bearings, larger pinion bearings
- Uses shims for backlash adjustment instead of threaded adjusters
- Twelve 12mm Ring gear bolts
- 10mm axle housing studs with 14mm nuts
- 30 splilne axles
- 30 spline pinion
* 4Runners do NOT use this diff at all. Late-model 4Runners still use the V6 8" diff above.
** This diff is NOT swappable with V6, 4cyl, high-pinion, or electric locking diffs. This diff cannot be fitted to an older style 8" axle because it uses a larger diameter mounting bolt pattern and because more space inside the housing necessary to accommodate the large bearing cap.
This diff commonly and mistakenly called an 8.4" or 8.25" diff, possibly to imply its extra strength. The ring gear actually measures 8". The extra strength of this diff comes from the bearing cap/truss and large diameter pinion gear shaft.
This diff cannot be fitted to an older style 8" axle because it uses a larger diameter mounting bolt pattern and because more space inside the housing necessary to accommodate the large bearing cap. The different bolt pattern also makes it very impractical to swap in an electric locking Toyota diff (the whole mounting flange would have to be re-done using a special jig).
- Carrier bearing truss and newer housing adds significant strength over V6 and 4cyl diffs
- Uses V6 carrier bearings, larger pinion bearings
- Uses shims for backlash adjustment instead of threaded adjusters
- Twelve 12mm Ring gear bolts
- 10mm axle housing studs with 14mm nuts
- 30 splilne axles
- 30 spline pinion
* 4Runners do NOT use this diff at all. Late-model 4Runners still use the V6 8" diff above.
** This diff is NOT swappable with V6, 4cyl, high-pinion, or electric locking diffs. This diff cannot be fitted to an older style 8" axle because it uses a larger diameter mounting bolt pattern and because more space inside the housing necessary to accommodate the large bearing cap.
Last edited by MudHippy; 11-15-2010 at 04:15 PM. Reason: Misinformation presented
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Excellent info here. Thanks a bunch guys.
I got quoted $1500-$1800 to do the full gear swap, by a local shop. Basically $400 in labor per axle.
I called east coast gear supply, and they want $1270 +shipping back to them. Watiing to hear back from Addicted Offroad. He's about 45 miles from me, but it might be worth it.
I got quoted $1500-$1800 to do the full gear swap, by a local shop. Basically $400 in labor per axle.
I called east coast gear supply, and they want $1270 +shipping back to them. Watiing to hear back from Addicted Offroad. He's about 45 miles from me, but it might be worth it.
#13
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It's actually also an 8". But is significantly different than ALL other 8" 3rds. The gears are the same as most 8" 3rds, the only 8" 3rds that use different gears are the hi-pinion 8" and 8" IFS. So as far as regearing it, it's going to be considered an 8" like all the rest except those. There are no 8.4" gears in reality. That's a myth.
Okay. I knew ALL OF THAT. And I have read it about 8 times before.
Without being able to site sources and threads I can not find at the moment, I will say that I read that the Tacoma 8" elocker ring gear measures 200MM's which is 7.87" and the Non elocker Tacoma ring gear measure 210MM's which is 8.26". And this info came AFTER the information on Eriks site.
With that being said, whether that is all true or not the Non TRD tacoma/ tundra/ T100 open differential is commonly referred to as the 8.4 diff. And its a nickname that will not be going away anytime soon.
This statement in your first post in this thread uses incorrect terminology and could deff confuse someone. The Tacoma/Tundra/ T100 Diffs are not called 8" diffs. No matter what they measure to.
#14
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Excellent info here. Thanks a bunch guys.
I got quoted $1500-$1800 to do the full gear swap, by a local shop. Basically $400 in labor per axle.
I called east coast gear supply, and they want $1270 +shipping back to them. Watiing to hear back from Addicted Offroad. He's about 45 miles from me, but it might be worth it.
I got quoted $1500-$1800 to do the full gear swap, by a local shop. Basically $400 in labor per axle.
I called east coast gear supply, and they want $1270 +shipping back to them. Watiing to hear back from Addicted Offroad. He's about 45 miles from me, but it might be worth it.
Also, mention to them that you are a TTORA forum member and they should be able to give you a slight discount as they sponsor the TTORA forum.
#15
All "8 inch" ring gears will vary in diameter based on how many teeth they have. NONE WILL LIKELY MEASURE EXACTLY 8". And to call any of them 8" is actually incorrect technically speaking, because the diameter of the bolt hole ring circle only measures ~6". I don't perpetuate myths. I only bust them.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...hreadid=228681
Don't go shooting yourself over it though. It's not worth it.
Myth Settled: 8.4, V6, 4cyl, ALL 8"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted this up on TTORA. Just copied and pasted:
There is a lot of misinformation out there on these diffs we've all got. These post is ment to clear the air, with actual facts and measurements taken, NOT hearsay. 5 diffs, Im concerned with:
4cyl (from 79-95 4cyl rear diffs, fronts in 79-85)
Early V6 from 88-95 rears in V6 trucks, and 86-87 rear trubo trucks
E-locker rear
High pinion front
Rear 8.25 or whatever (non-locking, taco rear diff)
NEWS FLASH, these are ALL 8" ring gears. The early 4cyl, is the weakest, with the smallest bearings, least ribbing, and pathetic carrier.
The early v6, used screw in adjuster for backlash and carrier bearing preload. It has a 4 pinion (better) carrier, bigger bearings, and more casting in the case.
The E-locker rear uses the same exact gear as the early V6 does, 10 bolts, 8" ring gear. The bearings are all the same, except the drivers side carrier bearing is much large for the shift mechanism.
The high pinion, from the front of fj80's are just a high pinion v6, or high pinion e-lock. Bearings are identical with low pinion versions.
Now the MYTH cleared up. The 8.25/8.4, whatever is not. It is a 8" gear. The casting is better still. The carrier bearings are shimmed, rather than screw in adjusters. The ring gear has 12 bolts instead of 10. Also, the carrier bearing caps are connected with "girdles" and are cast as one piece. This diff I will simply call the late model v6. The pinion shaft is larger, the bearings are slightly lager and the casting is beefier than earlier versions. However, THE RING GEAR IS NO LARGER THAN EALIER 8" DIFFS!
Just so you all know what you are dealing with with these axles.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted this up on TTORA. Just copied and pasted:
There is a lot of misinformation out there on these diffs we've all got. These post is ment to clear the air, with actual facts and measurements taken, NOT hearsay. 5 diffs, Im concerned with:
4cyl (from 79-95 4cyl rear diffs, fronts in 79-85)
Early V6 from 88-95 rears in V6 trucks, and 86-87 rear trubo trucks
E-locker rear
High pinion front
Rear 8.25 or whatever (non-locking, taco rear diff)
NEWS FLASH, these are ALL 8" ring gears. The early 4cyl, is the weakest, with the smallest bearings, least ribbing, and pathetic carrier.
The early v6, used screw in adjuster for backlash and carrier bearing preload. It has a 4 pinion (better) carrier, bigger bearings, and more casting in the case.
The E-locker rear uses the same exact gear as the early V6 does, 10 bolts, 8" ring gear. The bearings are all the same, except the drivers side carrier bearing is much large for the shift mechanism.
The high pinion, from the front of fj80's are just a high pinion v6, or high pinion e-lock. Bearings are identical with low pinion versions.
Now the MYTH cleared up. The 8.25/8.4, whatever is not. It is a 8" gear. The casting is better still. The carrier bearings are shimmed, rather than screw in adjusters. The ring gear has 12 bolts instead of 10. Also, the carrier bearing caps are connected with "girdles" and are cast as one piece. This diff I will simply call the late model v6. The pinion shaft is larger, the bearings are slightly lager and the casting is beefier than earlier versions. However, THE RING GEAR IS NO LARGER THAN EALIER 8" DIFFS!
Just so you all know what you are dealing with with these axles.
Don't go shooting yourself over it though. It's not worth it.
Last edited by MudHippy; 11-15-2010 at 02:25 PM. Reason: Slight inaccuracy correction
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Ricky I know how you feel man. I have done tons of things to my truck so far but the all mighty "Gear Install" is something I'm just not sure about yet. From what I have read you don't get a second chance with gear installs. You either do it right the first time or pay big to get it fixed. There was a guy on here that did gear installs, I think it was 300 per 3rd and you had to mail it to him. I think it was Zuk?? Good luck.
#17
the all mighty "Gear Install"?
Please, a trained monkey could install gears.
But whatever, go ahead and pay hundreds of dollars to have someone else do it for ya.
Not I my friend. Shoot, I haven't managed to screw it up yet, and I've never even done it strictly by the book! There's quite a larger margine for error than is believed by the "common dullard". Even Zuk makes it up as he goes along. Many aspects of the ways he installs gears are NOT common practice, nor are they recommended by the manufacturer's specifications. Meaning he doesn't do it by the book either!
But maybe I'm missing something. What EXACTLY is so complicated about it? That's right! NOTHING! Try rebuilding an engine some time, WAY less wiggle room there. Things need measured down to .0001". Cylinder bores honed to microinch finish(1 microinch = .000001", or one-millionth of an inch).
BTW, even Zuk makes mistakes. And he's by no means some kind of "Infalllible Gear God". And though his gear install skills might be excellent, his job as a "qualified gear installer" isn't even recognized as a true profession amongst professional mechanics. Nor should it be. Because in reality it's just one small chapter in the professional mechanic's book of knowledge. Any pro mechanic worth his salt should be able to install and setup differential gears.
Please, a trained monkey could install gears.
But whatever, go ahead and pay hundreds of dollars to have someone else do it for ya.
Not I my friend. Shoot, I haven't managed to screw it up yet, and I've never even done it strictly by the book! There's quite a larger margine for error than is believed by the "common dullard". Even Zuk makes it up as he goes along. Many aspects of the ways he installs gears are NOT common practice, nor are they recommended by the manufacturer's specifications. Meaning he doesn't do it by the book either!
But maybe I'm missing something. What EXACTLY is so complicated about it? That's right! NOTHING! Try rebuilding an engine some time, WAY less wiggle room there. Things need measured down to .0001". Cylinder bores honed to microinch finish(1 microinch = .000001", or one-millionth of an inch).
BTW, even Zuk makes mistakes. And he's by no means some kind of "Infalllible Gear God". And though his gear install skills might be excellent, his job as a "qualified gear installer" isn't even recognized as a true profession amongst professional mechanics. Nor should it be. Because in reality it's just one small chapter in the professional mechanic's book of knowledge. Any pro mechanic worth his salt should be able to install and setup differential gears.
Last edited by MudHippy; 11-15-2010 at 05:03 PM.
#18
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