DoveGray85

Magna flux the head? You can't magna flux an aluminum head. Maybe you meant to say have it pressure tested?

thralldad

Sorry I was working all weekend! I used a torque wrench but I don't have an inch/pound wrench . I don't ever rev over 4200 rpm. I'm usually that guy that's granny shifting through the gears. As previosly stated I pulled the VC and grabbed the chain and pulled it out-snapped! I will pull it aprat this weekend and see what happened.

I love this forum!

Built2Grind

an easy way to check for bent valves is to check your valve lash. if you have 1 or a few(more likely) that are way out of spec, like 3 or 4 times more than what it should be, then that is a bent valve. you would be amazingly lucky to not have bent any valves. good luck

Kiroshu

Eh goes to show OEM toyota parts are the way to go... You didn't try and spin it over to many times when it cut off did you....?

PismoJoe

Any more info??

thralldad

The autopsy continues. When I loosened one of the timing cover bolts I heard the chain tensioner snap. Apparently the tensioner bound up at some point. The resulting loose chain caught on the steel guide and broke a chunk off, the chunk followed the chain down and tore up the inside of the timing cover. I am going to get a chain and do a compression test (probably next weekend). I still have to pull the oilpan and fish out all the shrapnel. Looks like I'll be needing a timing cover,oil pump, chain set with guides. Might as well do the water pump too.

Is an 84 Celica 22 RE block the same as the 86 truck block? The pistons appear different(higher compression?). I can pick one up cheap.

flyingbrass

>Is an 84 Celica 22 RE block the same as the 86 truck block? The pistons appear different(higher compression?). I can pick one up cheap.

No, pre-85 blocks are a different height. Look for 85-95 blocks if you're shopping.


Gnarly, I've read of broken plastic guide parts causing pretty much the same thing. Any piece, whether plastic or metal, jammed in the wrong spot is bad news. Personally, at present I think plastic OEM quality guides (most likely purchased from Toyota to be sure) and quality aftermarket metal ones are a toss up. Arguments can be made either way.

drew303

I installed EB's metal backed guide in a 85 22r, month later the metal guide snapped.. IIRC about 2" from the top, bout where the block meets the head.. It fell behind the guide and kinda wedged n there and made the same noise the chain makes when it's worn through a plastic guide slapping the alum cover.

We replaced it with plastic and I used plastic on my 22r when i did the chain in it last summer. Personally I'd just use plastic... why? Two reasons.

One, the metal guide broke because the metal they use is cheap and probably got bent or "hurt" somwhere in mfg/shipping who knows?

Two, the plastic guides don't wear through until about the time the chain SHOULD BE REPLACED ANYWAYS.

And to that effect, even if the chain has eaten thru the guide, and eaten the guide and pooped it into your oil pan, the chain hitting the cover is a GREAT indication it's time-o-la to swap chains. And aluminum is forgiving on the chain vs a steel.

REALLY tho, the steel guides are only in theory available as a way to keep the chain from ruining your timing cover but I've replaced the cover on all motors I've done chains to becauase they're cheap .. its a "might as well"

fyi to those that dont know, steel backed guides... shouldnt be plural, only the driver side rail is steel and its lined with plastic.

flyingbrass

The metal vs. plastic issue is a recurring debate. A recent example is here.

IMO, both sides have merit. If using plastic, use good plastic, not made in China crap. If using steel, buy from someone reputable. And if using steel, check the fit both to the chain and cover because there's some wiggle room. Don't just slap it on however it lands and go. Adjust to fit best with the chain and make sure the cover will still fully seat.

Overall, the tensioner seems to be the most critical component in the system. If it malfunctions, you're in trouble regardless of what kind of guides you're using. So, use a top quality tensioner. OSK seems to have the most praise.

Ted says don't overtorque the tensioner mounting bolts. Too tight can distort the body, binding the piston. I have no idea how common that problem is, but seems like good advice to follow. The other biggie he harps on is making sure the top oil pump bolt doesn't protrude too far. This is the bolt, shown from the back side:





LCE would disagree. They sell single row timing kits with both guides steel backed. I think spending $150 for a single row timing kit is nuts, but they are available. IIRC, I also saw some steel backed guide pairs for sale on ebay.

hilandfrog

the metal DOA guides that came in the truck:clap

have both sides metal:dunno

Repo

thralldad

Flyingbrass;
I just went through your rebuild thread and I gotta tell you that I'm impressed. Thanks for the input and especially for posting your experiences!!

DeathCougar

iTrader: (23)

I won't ever put metal guides in my truck. I have learned over time there is zero point.

Once you elminate the weak point in the guides, you set yourself up for major failure. The chain will wear out long before the guides will, which will lead to it snapping. And before then, the tensioner will wear out. The chain slides on the tensioner and over time wears a groove just like it would in the cover. Eventually the chain gets loose enough that it will skip time, or snap resulting in major engine failure.

PismoJoe

Enough said!

Not to add to this debate, it sort of goes with both sides. My drivers side plastic guide that I removed from my 22RE was not warn much by any means, however the top mounting bracket had begun to crack, one point had gone all the way through. (in pg 1 of my build thread)

I agree that timing should be done at certain intervals regardless of what the guides look like, but my EB steel drivers rail kit is undamaged by the "mailing" process and seems sturdier than plastic mounts.

I will change my timing assembly long before the chain guides wear out or break, but I'm siding with metal just for the mounting bracket factor.

DeathCougar

iTrader: (23)

My information is personal experience having worked on many 22R/E's in my time at the yard.

Problem is, most people ignore the sound the truck is making or just plain can't hear it over their obnoxious exhaust. The tensioner wears out at roughly the same rate the guides would break at, so what would be the point of the metal guides, since you would have to replace the tensioner anyways?

The tensioner pushes out until it reaches its limit, as the chain wears on the tensioner. Ever notice that when you changed your guides, the tensioner was worn down as well? Given that the tensioner would need to be replaced, at the same time as the guides would have been, its a push.

I suppose one could argue that in the long run it saves you money, since you would only have to change the guides themselves once. I concede that point. But that assumes you change your timing set enough times to offset the cost of the metal guides.

DeathCougar

iTrader: (23)

I agree with a better design, the problem could be solved regarding the guide. All of the newer Toyota engines use a chain design, and metal backed guides. Apparently they learned with the 22R/E lol.

It still doesn't eliminate the chain from the equation, but every engine has its strong and weak points.

PismoJoe

Well the 3rz-fe uses a chain, though I have 120k on mine with no problems. I had to replace the head due to someone (PO took it to a shop) adjusting the valve clearance wrong at the 90k mile tune up, causing the valves to lose their dap entirely and crack my head in between all valves. Timing chain checked out, checked wear on guides as well as chain stretch. 2RZ, 3RZ don't really know the cut off dates of these engines in my head

PismoJoe

But just to add, Gnarly, your posts are right on the money from what my searching has brought me to, and though I am a noob to this site by far, I was just giving my .2. Regardless of your position, everyone can agree that the 22R/RE is bulletproof with the exception of the timing components.

drew303

No you can't argue that point because steel backed guides are just that, backed. They have a plastic lining. Metal Chain on Steel seems to me much worse for both the chain and the motor. Guides NEED to be replaced with every chain job. But seems silly to drive that point since all kits come with everything you need to replace. Who just buys a chain?

The only reason for a metal guide is to prevent the entire guide from breaking and littering the motor with debri and to prevent the chain from cutting through the cover into the water passage.

The cost issue is neglible. I got a full kit with cover (metal guide) from EB for $85 3 years ago dunno what they are now.

Having had one break and caused me to re-tear a motor apart to fix a broken metal guide was enough to make me not care about using metal guides.

Best way to prevent a plastic guide from cracking? Don't reef down on the two screws that hold it in place and change your chain every 80-100k like you're suppost to.

Another good indication it's time.. for example you just bought the rig or motor and have no idea how old the chain is is to pop the cover and look down the front, you can see that guide. Also, have someone cold start the motor, chain rattle is very obvious sound that can't be mistaken. The rattle may only be evident at startup before oil pressure is created. The tensioner runs on oil pressure so the chain at first crank is at full slack.

flyingbrass

Maybe metal backed guides accomplish that, meaning reduced likelihood of coming apart there? If so, isn't that an advantage?




For what it's worth, here is what Engnbldr wrote about the issue:


----------------------
Here are my thoughts/opinions for the dab it is worth:

This controversy has been going on for ages, but there really should be no controversy.

Toyota originally used ALL steel back and coated guiderails in the 20R and early 22R through 1982. Those were a dual roller setup.

To save weight, (insert "cost" if you prefer..*LOL**) they redesigned to a nylon type and went to the single roller type chains. Of course with less surface area, the single roller arrangement does wear a bit more rapidly, although not a lot.

Federal government Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) requirements were the primary reason for the redesign.

The nice side effect was a net power gain from the engine though less drag, significant since it is measurable at 5-6 H/P. Less total vehicle weight also, only a small amount but ounces count when dealing with government and fines for not meeting the standards.

The tensioner is highly susceptible to debris causing the arm to stick, no matter what kind or who you purchase it from. Internal tolerences must be very close or the tensioner (which is just an oil filled shock absorber) will not operate in the first place.

Note when operating a tensioner by hand, there is a little bleed hole leakage in the back. This is perfectly normal.

There is plenty of room for clean oil at the tensioner shaft and housing bore, there is no room at all for dirt or debris of any kind. The engine is vertical, so any loose chain slaps from the firing pulse, then the guiderail snaps.

An unfortunate side effect of that guide breaking is the chain contacts the timing cover. Directly behind that contact point is a coolant jacket that can then be quickly breached. Note I did say QUICKLY! There is no coolant jacket on the passenger side, therefore no logical reason for steel backed on that side, except for what is known in the business as "customer perception."

When this type of failure happens, coolant enters the crankcase and you find you do not need a timing chain, you need an engine!

Some of us in the aftermarket saw opportunity, I should claim the idea for my own but what happened was I noted several suppliers cutting down the early style guiderails and using them in the later engines to try and cure the common driver's side breakage problem due to an upset with the tensioner. I believe (don't quote me though) that LCE was the first to see it, Tim over at DOA was also making them I even made a few that way myself.

But being lazy, and disliking metal dust from chop saws, I contracted to have the driver's side guiderail mass produced. Several others out there did exactly the same thing at about the same time.... (Darn it!.....)

The steel backed guide has just one function: In upset conditions, it lasts longer. If the chain is slapping, it can survive long enough to get you to where repairs can be made. If it is allowed to slap long enough, that steel guide will break, also. If the chain actually breaks, well... At that point you don't care about the dang steel guide any more, anyway.

In normal conditions with no upsets, the nylon type guide will last just as long. So all the steel guide does is offer some protection. If it saves you purchasing a crankshaft just once, then it is one of the world's cheapest investments.

The other concern I constantly hear is steel filings in the oil. This is an old wive's tale, it can't happen. If it could, there would be one heck of a LOT of very mad 20R owners out there......Just my thoughts and opinions here. We have never built a a 22r/re inhouse without using the driver's side steel backed guide.

*You see, back when we did produce engines inhouse, we had to offer a warranty and we don't like buying new crankshafts, either.

*Hope this helps......*EB
-----------------------

92 TOY

good post