Theories on Cause of Timing Chain Guide Breakage
11-15-2009, 03:56 PM
#61
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Location: maple ridge, British Columbia, Canada
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Ted has spoken, why are we still debating?
I have full confidence in the metal backed guide. Just makes sence IMO.
When I pulled the broken peices out of the pan from the nylock guides, I pulled out a chunk of drivers side guide that was at least 4" long! Then about two handfulls of chunks of plastic.... woo!
On a side note, I lost the little peice of paper that came with my kit untill I was cleaning up after the job. The note that tells you to go easy on the tensioner bolts. I didnt see that, tightend it pretty good.... Seems to be working fine tho.
I have full confidence in the metal backed guide. Just makes sence IMO.
When I pulled the broken peices out of the pan from the nylock guides, I pulled out a chunk of drivers side guide that was at least 4" long! Then about two handfulls of chunks of plastic.... woo!
On a side note, I lost the little peice of paper that came with my kit untill I was cleaning up after the job. The note that tells you to go easy on the tensioner bolts. I didnt see that, tightend it pretty good.... Seems to be working fine tho.
Last edited by Jay351; 11-15-2009 at 03:58 PM.
11-16-2009, 07:14 AM
#62
Registered User
Insufficient evidence? So, how many folks do you hear complaining about the metal guide?.....
Absolutely it's up to the individual to make their own choice depending on what they feel is best for them. To give an example, when I was rebuilding my 22re I did a lot of research on bearings for the motor. All the evidence and most recommendations directed me towards the all aluminum style bottom end bearings......King brand seeming to be the best of that choice. Well, after tearing the motor apart and obversing what happened, talking it over with a number of people, weighing the pros and cons, and weighing in my experience, I'd decided tri-metal bearings were what I was most comfortable with. The ones I got weren't Toyota OEM, but of the same construction and comparable quality.....just cost less because they didn't come through Toyota. And, if one did enough digging around, they'd discover Toyota doesn't even make their bearings. Atleast, not any more. Not sure if they ever really did, but still. So, I followed my inuition and so far I'm perfectly happy with them. I could see with my own eyes the "safety" benefit in using them because even after the destruction I witness, my crankshaft was in perfect shape. Saved me a lot of money.
After yesterday, I went back through the ol' memory banks and tried to recall what timing kit exactly went into the motor that had failed. I'd bought it from the only reputable foreign car shop in my area upon the suggestion of the mechanic who'd, at that time, installed the kit. He was/is a long time, experienced, Toyota certified mechanic. I had to wonder though if the kit the shop supplied was actually Japanese (ie. Toyota.....just not from Toyota, ie. dealership) and not from O'Reilly as I knew that the shop did order some of their repair supplies from them. Then I remembered when I'd pulled the tensioner it had a Japanese tag.....which I'm not recalling the specifics on, at the moment. So, I came to the conclusion that it was not a quality issue that caused the failure. What I would even call an early failure given the original factory assembly lasted somewhere around 125k before the guide broke and the chain began eating the timing cover. Didn't go through, but close enough for a spine tingler. Anyway, I still don't know why it didn't last like I thought it should, but it doesn't matter now. I mean, I'd done everything I knew and learned that was best and I still wound up having to rebuild almost the entire motor; new rings, new bearings, and rebuild the head. Cylinders only needed honing and pistons some cleaning up. Crank and cam were still flawless and within spec.
(Dang.....hit the submit button, page wouldn't load, but here's the rest)
Right. So, after all that I went with the metal guide from engnbldr. I was set on engnbldr and not some other company after reading DaveInDenver's mishap. Atleast engnbldr will back the parts up if something did fail. Dave didn't even get that courtesy from who he'd bought from. And, speaking of Dave, it's hard for me to imagine he didn't have some kind of audible warning before his timing assembly failed. IOW, how does metal just break without the chain slapping it enough to do so? Maybe like me, he just kind of ingored it and hoped everything would be fine? Conjecture on my part, but seems logical to question.
So, I can see why one would have reservations about using the metal guide given what could happen if it did break, but all I'm trying to say is that in the event of failure no matter what you're using, you're fortunate if you don't have an entire rebuild to deal with. I used quality parts the last timing replacement, so why didn't it just continue to run regardless of the guide and simply start in on the cover again? Instead of near total ruin, that is?
Okay.........so about the tensioner thing. That discussion should be moot now, but I just wanted to say that all was trying to do was point out it was explained how it worked by someone I'm sure we'd all agree that would/should know, so why interpret that mean something differently? I know........we ALL get excited in the disussion. It's interesting to us. (Boring as hell to many, but interesting to us..........geeks
) No harm, but golly.......no sense in making an apple an orange, if you know what I mean.
Absolutely it's up to the individual to make their own choice depending on what they feel is best for them. To give an example, when I was rebuilding my 22re I did a lot of research on bearings for the motor. All the evidence and most recommendations directed me towards the all aluminum style bottom end bearings......King brand seeming to be the best of that choice. Well, after tearing the motor apart and obversing what happened, talking it over with a number of people, weighing the pros and cons, and weighing in my experience, I'd decided tri-metal bearings were what I was most comfortable with. The ones I got weren't Toyota OEM, but of the same construction and comparable quality.....just cost less because they didn't come through Toyota. And, if one did enough digging around, they'd discover Toyota doesn't even make their bearings. Atleast, not any more. Not sure if they ever really did, but still. So, I followed my inuition and so far I'm perfectly happy with them. I could see with my own eyes the "safety" benefit in using them because even after the destruction I witness, my crankshaft was in perfect shape. Saved me a lot of money.
After yesterday, I went back through the ol' memory banks and tried to recall what timing kit exactly went into the motor that had failed. I'd bought it from the only reputable foreign car shop in my area upon the suggestion of the mechanic who'd, at that time, installed the kit. He was/is a long time, experienced, Toyota certified mechanic. I had to wonder though if the kit the shop supplied was actually Japanese (ie. Toyota.....just not from Toyota, ie. dealership) and not from O'Reilly as I knew that the shop did order some of their repair supplies from them. Then I remembered when I'd pulled the tensioner it had a Japanese tag.....which I'm not recalling the specifics on, at the moment. So, I came to the conclusion that it was not a quality issue that caused the failure. What I would even call an early failure given the original factory assembly lasted somewhere around 125k before the guide broke and the chain began eating the timing cover. Didn't go through, but close enough for a spine tingler. Anyway, I still don't know why it didn't last like I thought it should, but it doesn't matter now. I mean, I'd done everything I knew and learned that was best and I still wound up having to rebuild almost the entire motor; new rings, new bearings, and rebuild the head. Cylinders only needed honing and pistons some cleaning up. Crank and cam were still flawless and within spec.
(Dang.....hit the submit button, page wouldn't load, but here's the rest)
Right. So, after all that I went with the metal guide from engnbldr. I was set on engnbldr and not some other company after reading DaveInDenver's mishap. Atleast engnbldr will back the parts up if something did fail. Dave didn't even get that courtesy from who he'd bought from. And, speaking of Dave, it's hard for me to imagine he didn't have some kind of audible warning before his timing assembly failed. IOW, how does metal just break without the chain slapping it enough to do so? Maybe like me, he just kind of ingored it and hoped everything would be fine? Conjecture on my part, but seems logical to question.
So, I can see why one would have reservations about using the metal guide given what could happen if it did break, but all I'm trying to say is that in the event of failure no matter what you're using, you're fortunate if you don't have an entire rebuild to deal with. I used quality parts the last timing replacement, so why didn't it just continue to run regardless of the guide and simply start in on the cover again? Instead of near total ruin, that is?
Okay.........so about the tensioner thing. That discussion should be moot now, but I just wanted to say that all was trying to do was point out it was explained how it worked by someone I'm sure we'd all agree that would/should know, so why interpret that mean something differently? I know........we ALL get excited in the disussion. It's interesting to us. (Boring as hell to many, but interesting to us..........geeks
) No harm, but golly.......no sense in making an apple an orange, if you know what I mean.
Last edited by thook; 11-16-2009 at 07:45 AM.
11-16-2009, 07:35 AM
#63
This the $30 kit I bought at Pep Boys and installed a couple months ago:
As you can see, they didn't even fill the area around the bolt holes with plastic. Also, the chain didn't even have any timing marks on it, I had to paint on my own. I obviously didn't do much research before buying the kit, it was just the cheapest one I could find so I bought it, knowing that many times the cheapest thing is often the most durable (though maybe not in this case).
I'll keep you guys posted on how well this $30 kit holds up. But hey, at least I have the right kind of coolant (Toyota red). I learned that lesson the hard way.
As you can see, they didn't even fill the area around the bolt holes with plastic. Also, the chain didn't even have any timing marks on it, I had to paint on my own. I obviously didn't do much research before buying the kit, it was just the cheapest one I could find so I bought it, knowing that many times the cheapest thing is often the most durable (though maybe not in this case).
I'll keep you guys posted on how well this $30 kit holds up. But hey, at least I have the right kind of coolant (Toyota red). I learned that lesson the hard way.
11-16-2009, 08:00 AM
#65
Registered User
Just because Ted "has spoken", doesn't mean that the discussion should be closed. Ted is VERY knowledgeable, and probably one the most knowledeagle Toyota engine builders out there. And over the years, I have clipped his comments and put them in my library. Certainly he's the best flow guy in the country.... but, there is always room for another opinion.
If you asked 10 of the top NASCAR Crew Chiefs, would they ALL agree on every technical issue regarding how to win a race??
That's just my worthless opinion.
gNARLS.
If you asked 10 of the top NASCAR Crew Chiefs, would they ALL agree on every technical issue regarding how to win a race??
That's just my worthless opinion.
gNARLS.
Regardless of guide type, what can we do to get the best life possible out of the timing system?
Ted emphasizes not overtorquing the tensioner bolts. 12 ft/lbs. max, and use a 1/4" or 3/8" torque wrench accurate in that range. The bolts being too tight can distort the body and bind the plunger.
He also says double check that the oil pump bolt doesn't protrude far enough to interfere with the chain. I presume failure from that would happen quickly.
And, at least when using a metal backed guide, adjust it (has some wiggle room) so there is clearance, or at most only light contact, between guide and chain.
Anything else?
Ted emphasizes not overtorquing the tensioner bolts. 12 ft/lbs. max, and use a 1/4" or 3/8" torque wrench accurate in that range. The bolts being too tight can distort the body and bind the plunger.
He also says double check that the oil pump bolt doesn't protrude far enough to interfere with the chain. I presume failure from that would happen quickly.
And, at least when using a metal backed guide, adjust it (has some wiggle room) so there is clearance, or at most only light contact, between guide and chain.
Anything else?
11-16-2009, 08:03 AM
#66
Registered User
This the $30 kit I bought at Pep Boys and installed a couple months ago:
As you can see, they didn't even fill the area around the bolt holes with plastic. Also, the chain didn't even have any timing marks on it, I had to paint on my own. I obviously didn't do much research before buying the kit, it was just the cheapest one I could find so I bought it, knowing that many times the cheapest thing is often the most durable (though maybe not in this case).
I'll keep you guys posted on how well this $30 kit holds up. But hey, at least I have the right kind of coolant (Toyota red). I learned that lesson the hard way.
As you can see, they didn't even fill the area around the bolt holes with plastic. Also, the chain didn't even have any timing marks on it, I had to paint on my own. I obviously didn't do much research before buying the kit, it was just the cheapest one I could find so I bought it, knowing that many times the cheapest thing is often the most durable (though maybe not in this case).
I'll keep you guys posted on how well this $30 kit holds up. But hey, at least I have the right kind of coolant (Toyota red). I learned that lesson the hard way.
11-16-2009, 09:07 AM
#67
The stock timing chain guides broke a couple of months ago at around 200k (they were already replaced once by the dealer at 100k) so I went out and bought the cheapest replacement kit I could find (the one they had at Pep Boys for $30) and slapped it in.
The Red Toyota coolant is supposed to prevent cylinder heads from corroding. I replaced two (one at 80k and another at 100k) during the time I was using green Prestone coolant. I have had no more problems (I'm at 200k now) since I started using the red Toyota stuff.
Coincidence? Perhaps, but I'm not about to replace a third cylinder head, I would probably junk the truck if it came to that. I am a cheapskate and a gambling man when it comes to timing chain kits, but I'm no fool.
The Red Toyota coolant is supposed to prevent cylinder heads from corroding. I replaced two (one at 80k and another at 100k) during the time I was using green Prestone coolant. I have had no more problems (I'm at 200k now) since I started using the red Toyota stuff.
Coincidence? Perhaps, but I'm not about to replace a third cylinder head, I would probably junk the truck if it came to that. I am a cheapskate and a gambling man when it comes to timing chain kits, but I'm no fool.
Last edited by peckinpah; 11-16-2009 at 09:08 AM.
11-16-2009, 06:40 PM
#68
Registered User
adj.
1. Given to excessive and often trivial or rambling talk; tiresomely talkative.
2. Wordy and rambling: a garrulous speech
Dang.........guess I'll stop posting.
NOT!!!!!! hahahahaha
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