Smog Troubles - CA blues
05-12-2014, 10:36 AM
#22
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Hey Jim, Very interesting about the VSV there. Next time I go into the shop, if it doesn't look like I am going to pass the test easily on the first test run, I will ask the guy to test it with the VSV disabled like this to see if that will make the difference.
94Tonka, Iv been looking around for some wheels to swap on, no luck until yesterday when i realized.. I still have a stock sized spare on this truck and also on my Tacoma! I know the tire sizes are slightly different, but for the test i cant imagine this will bother the rollers on the dyno too much. My spare on the pickup is a 31x10.5r15 and the Tacoma spare is a 265x70r16. Pretty dang close. The 31 is worn too, i bet they are identical diameters actually because of this.
Well I was able to work on it a bit over the weekend. Here is the leak
I had done the valve cover gaskets a few years ago, and thought I remembered how to do it correctly, but forgot the FIPG in the corners there! as you can see. I only FIPGd the gaskets in the valve coveres themselves. So this is all redone now and hopefully, fingers crossed, that this is nice and leakproof now.
Also, my truck was stolen last year, so been trying to replace the bits there were taken, got lucky and found a single Aisin hub on ebay, picked it up, cleaned it and put it on. Nice to have both my hubs working again. Its a little beat up on the outside but the internals looked nice and clean. Now i just need to order up the correct bolts for it to mount on the studs. This didn't have them, found a few that work for now, but would like to have the correct ones.
I held off putting the plenum back on, I have a set of the FlameThrower Injectors that should be arriving this week. Kind of thinking I might not install them until after the smog.. i dunno. Worried that I am going to run into issues trying to get the Air Fuel ratio in harmony with the new injectors. This is just all speculation from reading too much online though. My tags are officially expired now so i cant really put on a bunch of miles with out probably getting a ticket. Registration is paid, just need to get the smog to go through before my tags will get sent. Damn.
Also got the new OEM Distributor cap and Rotor on. Not much else yet. Still wondering what the best thing to do with the injectors would be.
-Ryan
94Tonka, Iv been looking around for some wheels to swap on, no luck until yesterday when i realized.. I still have a stock sized spare on this truck and also on my Tacoma! I know the tire sizes are slightly different, but for the test i cant imagine this will bother the rollers on the dyno too much. My spare on the pickup is a 31x10.5r15 and the Tacoma spare is a 265x70r16. Pretty dang close. The 31 is worn too, i bet they are identical diameters actually because of this.
Well I was able to work on it a bit over the weekend. Here is the leak
I had done the valve cover gaskets a few years ago, and thought I remembered how to do it correctly, but forgot the FIPG in the corners there! as you can see. I only FIPGd the gaskets in the valve coveres themselves. So this is all redone now and hopefully, fingers crossed, that this is nice and leakproof now.
Also, my truck was stolen last year, so been trying to replace the bits there were taken, got lucky and found a single Aisin hub on ebay, picked it up, cleaned it and put it on. Nice to have both my hubs working again. Its a little beat up on the outside but the internals looked nice and clean. Now i just need to order up the correct bolts for it to mount on the studs. This didn't have them, found a few that work for now, but would like to have the correct ones.
I held off putting the plenum back on, I have a set of the FlameThrower Injectors that should be arriving this week. Kind of thinking I might not install them until after the smog.. i dunno. Worried that I am going to run into issues trying to get the Air Fuel ratio in harmony with the new injectors. This is just all speculation from reading too much online though. My tags are officially expired now so i cant really put on a bunch of miles with out probably getting a ticket. Registration is paid, just need to get the smog to go through before my tags will get sent. Damn.
Also got the new OEM Distributor cap and Rotor on. Not much else yet. Still wondering what the best thing to do with the injectors would be.
-Ryan
05-12-2014, 12:09 PM
#23
I would think the flame throwers might help at least at low idle. They don't put more fuel in they just make sure you use more of the file you put through the motor. The stock Toyota injectors have 2 big holes in them vs. the flame throwers have 4 small holes in them. The theory is that with the larger holes fuel does not have to be as atomized to make it to the cylinder. But with 4 small holes the fuel pretty much has to be in vapor form to reach the cylinder.
When I installed my flame throwers last week ish. I noticed that my bottom end of the rpm range 950-1800 cleaned up a lot. More crisp throttle response and less hesitation. I have also heard rumors that Cali guys that consistently struggled to pass smog were now able to pass.
Good luck. Hope you like your flame throwers. I love mine.
When I installed my flame throwers last week ish. I noticed that my bottom end of the rpm range 950-1800 cleaned up a lot. More crisp throttle response and less hesitation. I have also heard rumors that Cali guys that consistently struggled to pass smog were now able to pass.
Good luck. Hope you like your flame throwers. I love mine.
05-12-2014, 01:53 PM
#24
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Getting the PCV valve out can be difficult. I have stood on the cover and with vise grips on the PCV to get it pulled out. The grommet will break in pieces.
I meant to mention where the EGR bolts to the head to make sure it is clear as well. May need to use a piece of wire to poke in there as well. I think Bosch is great for domestic trucks but their parts just dont work on Toyotas.
I really like my Flamethrowers as well and it does help on the bottom end. For what it cost to have your injectors cleaned, you can get Flamethrowers for less and feel they are better design. I am not sure what the 88s will look like. I think they are like mine which is the 85-87 design. Thefishguy77 injectors have four holes (89-95) versus just one hole.
Here is what I think 88 will look like. The one on the right.
I meant to mention where the EGR bolts to the head to make sure it is clear as well. May need to use a piece of wire to poke in there as well. I think Bosch is great for domestic trucks but their parts just dont work on Toyotas.
I really like my Flamethrowers as well and it does help on the bottom end. For what it cost to have your injectors cleaned, you can get Flamethrowers for less and feel they are better design. I am not sure what the 88s will look like. I think they are like mine which is the 85-87 design. Thefishguy77 injectors have four holes (89-95) versus just one hole.
Here is what I think 88 will look like. The one on the right.
Last edited by Terrys87; 05-12-2014 at 01:55 PM.
05-12-2014, 02:07 PM
#25
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Thread Starter
Terry that is good to hear, have you had to do any Air Flow Meter adjustments? I'm really hoping I can just install the injectors, take it on a 10 mile trip and drive into the smog station and get this over with.. Would be nice to not have a lot of fuss after changing these.
05-12-2014, 02:27 PM
#26
Terry
"Thefishguy77 injectors have four holes (89-95) versus just one hole."
Are you saying the stock injectors for 89-95 have 2 holes and the flame throwers have 4. And earlier years only had 1 hole stock? Just trying to keep it straight. Brain is kinda fried. Trying to install new tps and adjustment is just driving me nuts. Sorry for the confusion.
"Thefishguy77 injectors have four holes (89-95) versus just one hole."
Are you saying the stock injectors for 89-95 have 2 holes and the flame throwers have 4. And earlier years only had 1 hole stock? Just trying to keep it straight. Brain is kinda fried. Trying to install new tps and adjustment is just driving me nuts. Sorry for the confusion.
Last edited by thefishguy77; 05-12-2014 at 03:16 PM.
05-12-2014, 04:04 PM
#27
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mbomber1... I did have to adjust the idle. Seems like I had to adjust it down if I recall right. I felt it was bacuse it was getting a better burn. I didnt have to do any AFM adjustments. After your computer relearns everything, just for fun, try and lug it down so bad that it quits running. I think you will be surprised at how much further down it will lug down before dying.
Hello fishguy77..I have a set of the 89-95 stock injectors. I will need to look at them and see if they are one or two hole. It has been a while since I looked at them. I may have caused some confusion on that. I seen somewhere that some one posted a picture of the Flamethrowers and they had four holes. I really think that is going to be an improvemnet over the stock ones. The 85-87 have one hole like in the picture above and I think the same with the 88s.
On a different truck and nothing involving the Flamethrowers, I too am having a difficult time with a TPS. I plan on going thru the FSM and looking up info on the web on TPS. If I find anything out that I think may help I will pass it on to you.
Hello fishguy77..I have a set of the 89-95 stock injectors. I will need to look at them and see if they are one or two hole. It has been a while since I looked at them. I may have caused some confusion on that. I seen somewhere that some one posted a picture of the Flamethrowers and they had four holes. I really think that is going to be an improvemnet over the stock ones. The 85-87 have one hole like in the picture above and I think the same with the 88s.
On a different truck and nothing involving the Flamethrowers, I too am having a difficult time with a TPS. I plan on going thru the FSM and looking up info on the web on TPS. If I find anything out that I think may help I will pass it on to you.
05-12-2014, 04:30 PM
#28
Terry that is good to hear, have you had to do any Air Flow Meter adjustments? I'm really hoping I can just install the injectors, take it on a 10 mile trip and drive into the smog station and get this over with.. Would be nice to not have a lot of fuss after changing these.
05-12-2014, 09:34 PM
#29
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mbomberz1,
Yes the EGR VSV action on the 3VZE motor was a big surprise to me and others on the forum. The fact that the Thorley headers and high flow cat/muffler would impair the exhaust emissions by affecting the way ECU controls EGR operation seemed strange but that was the only conclusion I could come to after several weeks of troubleshooting.
My truck is basically bone stock except for a K&N air filter and the exhaust system. It has good compression numbers and has performed very well for all of its 225K kms. I have owned and maintained it myself since new so I know nothing has been done to the engine other than good regular maintenance. The fact that the single change of disconnecting the EGR VSV to force the EGR on significantly improved my NOX readings confirmed that as the problem though.
When I ran the truck with a test light connected to the VSV and saw that ECU did not have the EGR switched on during the running/load portion of the smog test I knew it was a major factor. The senior tech at the provincial test facility head office confirmed that the EGR not operating would likely have a very negative affect on the NOX portion of the test results so it was a no-brainer to force it on during the test by disconnecting the VSV relay.
Not sure what else might be going on with your engine, but if you've verified the major systems and everything checks out I would definitely try the next smog test with the EGR VSV disconnected.
Good luck!
Jim
Yes the EGR VSV action on the 3VZE motor was a big surprise to me and others on the forum. The fact that the Thorley headers and high flow cat/muffler would impair the exhaust emissions by affecting the way ECU controls EGR operation seemed strange but that was the only conclusion I could come to after several weeks of troubleshooting.
My truck is basically bone stock except for a K&N air filter and the exhaust system. It has good compression numbers and has performed very well for all of its 225K kms. I have owned and maintained it myself since new so I know nothing has been done to the engine other than good regular maintenance. The fact that the single change of disconnecting the EGR VSV to force the EGR on significantly improved my NOX readings confirmed that as the problem though.
When I ran the truck with a test light connected to the VSV and saw that ECU did not have the EGR switched on during the running/load portion of the smog test I knew it was a major factor. The senior tech at the provincial test facility head office confirmed that the EGR not operating would likely have a very negative affect on the NOX portion of the test results so it was a no-brainer to force it on during the test by disconnecting the VSV relay.
Not sure what else might be going on with your engine, but if you've verified the major systems and everything checks out I would definitely try the next smog test with the EGR VSV disconnected.
Good luck!
Jim
05-13-2014, 02:32 PM
#30
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Thread Starter
Did you have any theorys as to how the computer would be affected by the increased exhaust flow? I dont know the systems of these trucks inside and out but after all the work I have done to this one over the years im semi familiar with a lot of it. I cant figure out thought why the ECU would start mishandling the EGR VSV simply because of increased exhaust flow.
The few things i read about the back pressure being lower, thus lowering the amount of exhaust gas being forced through the EGR made some sense, but that wouldn't explain what you are saying about the VSV literally not being actuated at the correct time to enable to EGR.
If you happen to know, what are the specific circumstances that the VSV and EGR should be functioning? As i understand it, its just on the lower end of power demand but is then shut off during hard acceleration to give you full power. I'm not sure at what the specifics of its actuation point are though. Is it based on strictly engine RPM, or possibly more in sync to the Air/Fuel tables built into the ECU? Or something else even?
Either way, my plan is to button everything up on the truck this weekend, if everything goes well, i will hopefully have some new smog numbers to report back next week.
Thanks for all the help everyone.
The few things i read about the back pressure being lower, thus lowering the amount of exhaust gas being forced through the EGR made some sense, but that wouldn't explain what you are saying about the VSV literally not being actuated at the correct time to enable to EGR.
If you happen to know, what are the specific circumstances that the VSV and EGR should be functioning? As i understand it, its just on the lower end of power demand but is then shut off during hard acceleration to give you full power. I'm not sure at what the specifics of its actuation point are though. Is it based on strictly engine RPM, or possibly more in sync to the Air/Fuel tables built into the ECU? Or something else even?
Either way, my plan is to button everything up on the truck this weekend, if everything goes well, i will hopefully have some new smog numbers to report back next week.
Thanks for all the help everyone.
05-14-2014, 05:23 PM
#32
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mbomberz1,
The best explanation of EGR operation I have found is at http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h61.pdf which is a Toyota document. One of the factors they talk about is ECU control of EGR operation. I've attached the pertinent section. Of the three factors they list in the table #2 or #3 might have an effect.
Based on #3, a possible explanation might be that since the header system + K&N intake increases the power of the engine by some amount (not saying a lot, but definitely some) this may affect the load calculation done by the ECU just enough so that the load experienced during the emissions test is low enough that the EGR is disabled. This certainly matches the operation I saw while driving the vehicle and watching the EGR VSV operation during the smog test (from my other thread):
"The most interesting thing I learned from the test was that the EGR system is not actually operating under the test conditions! I had a test light hooked up to the EGR VSV so I could see it go on and off. Even though it does activate the EGR while driving during highway cruising and light acceleration/engine load, there is not enough load during the 25mph test to cause the ECU to switch off the EGR VSV and allow the EGR to operate."
That's the best I can do! All I know for sure is disconnecting the EGR VSV for the test gets me a pass every time.
Cheers!
Jim
The best explanation of EGR operation I have found is at http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h61.pdf which is a Toyota document. One of the factors they talk about is ECU control of EGR operation. I've attached the pertinent section. Of the three factors they list in the table #2 or #3 might have an effect.
Based on #3, a possible explanation might be that since the header system + K&N intake increases the power of the engine by some amount (not saying a lot, but definitely some) this may affect the load calculation done by the ECU just enough so that the load experienced during the emissions test is low enough that the EGR is disabled. This certainly matches the operation I saw while driving the vehicle and watching the EGR VSV operation during the smog test (from my other thread):
"The most interesting thing I learned from the test was that the EGR system is not actually operating under the test conditions! I had a test light hooked up to the EGR VSV so I could see it go on and off. Even though it does activate the EGR while driving during highway cruising and light acceleration/engine load, there is not enough load during the 25mph test to cause the ECU to switch off the EGR VSV and allow the EGR to operate."
That's the best I can do! All I know for sure is disconnecting the EGR VSV for the test gets me a pass every time.
Cheers!
Jim
05-14-2014, 07:00 PM
#33
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your headers dont have enough back pressure for your motor. that is why you are failing smog. The less back pressure the less exaust is going into the egr. less EGR the hotter the cumbustion chamber=creating NOx. i dont know about your certain motor situation but reading this whole thread it really points to your headers being at fault for your failures.
05-27-2014, 09:11 AM
#37
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Thread Starter
Spent the long weekend putting everything back together on the truck and doing some more general tune up related items. Terrys87 you were right, the injectors you posted up looked just like mine when i got them in the mail from FlameThrower last week.
Had a bit of a confused moment while swapping out the injectors, the new ones come with a large rubber oring on the bottom that is supposed to seat inside of the injector spacer cup thing. Well when I pulled my oringals out, their rubber spacer/oring didnt come out on any of them with the injectors. I didnt even realize they were in there, the rubber basically turned to plastic like the PCV valve gromet and i thought it was part of the spacer cup! Couldnt figure out why these new ones were not going down far enough. Eventually figured out i had to dig out the old crusty rubber seals from the original injectors. Everything went smooth after that. Truck started up ok after the fuel filled up the rails, took a few seconds to figure itself out then started running pretty good, let it idle for a while revved it a bit and everything seemed to settle in well. Only took it for a short drive around the block so all I can say thus far is that there is no negative effects. That was a major relief for me.
Got the new Denso o2 sensor in, new cap, rotor and fresh coolant. Valve covers are not leaking, and I have a set of 31" wheels for the rears to run on the next smog test, hopefully this week. Should hopefully pass with out too much more work, though I am prepared to try your trick jgrant721, in addition to making a restrictor plate to put in front of my cat if all else fails to increase back pressure, thanks Old_Blue for confirming this as well.
Had a bit of a confused moment while swapping out the injectors, the new ones come with a large rubber oring on the bottom that is supposed to seat inside of the injector spacer cup thing. Well when I pulled my oringals out, their rubber spacer/oring didnt come out on any of them with the injectors. I didnt even realize they were in there, the rubber basically turned to plastic like the PCV valve gromet and i thought it was part of the spacer cup! Couldnt figure out why these new ones were not going down far enough. Eventually figured out i had to dig out the old crusty rubber seals from the original injectors. Everything went smooth after that. Truck started up ok after the fuel filled up the rails, took a few seconds to figure itself out then started running pretty good, let it idle for a while revved it a bit and everything seemed to settle in well. Only took it for a short drive around the block so all I can say thus far is that there is no negative effects. That was a major relief for me.
Got the new Denso o2 sensor in, new cap, rotor and fresh coolant. Valve covers are not leaking, and I have a set of 31" wheels for the rears to run on the next smog test, hopefully this week. Should hopefully pass with out too much more work, though I am prepared to try your trick jgrant721, in addition to making a restrictor plate to put in front of my cat if all else fails to increase back pressure, thanks Old_Blue for confirming this as well.
05-27-2014, 11:36 AM
#38
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Glad to hear you are making progress. I have seen plastic almost turn to glass like material they get so old. I feel for you guys that have to deal with smog test. I dont like seeing the fog storms flowing from an an exhaust but feel they are to strict on other things.
05-30-2014, 02:07 PM
#39
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Great news to report!
Got the 4th smog test today, passed with flying colors. Wish i had a better idea of exactly what fix helped the most, but either way I can now rest easy knowing this problem shouldn't be back next time around.
Results:
------- CO2 | O2 | HC | CO | NO
----------------------------------------
15mph: 14.7 | 0.1 | 17 | .03 | 22 <---
25mph: 14.6 | 0.0 | 12 | .03 | 3 <---
Couldn't believe it when i got the numbers back. To go from 1070 down to 22. Incredible. Never thought it would get that low.
Differences between the 3rd test to the 4th test:
-Cleaned EGR and EGR Tube to plenum
-Cleaned Plenum out
-PCV replaced
-New Injectors
-Denso Distributor Cap
-Denso Rotor
-NGK Plugs
-Fresh Toyota Red Coolant
-Denso o2 Sensor from a bosch
-31" Tires on back instead of 32s
No fancy tricks other than swapping the wheels to a slightly smaller size, didn't have to mess with the VSV or a restrictor plate. So relieved. The only sad event today was that i couldn't get my new tags from AAA since I paid my registration online, i have to wait for the DMV to send them out instead, so i gotta wait a few weeks before i can legally drive it.
Thanks everyone for your help!
Got the 4th smog test today, passed with flying colors. Wish i had a better idea of exactly what fix helped the most, but either way I can now rest easy knowing this problem shouldn't be back next time around.
Results:
------- CO2 | O2 | HC | CO | NO
----------------------------------------
15mph: 14.7 | 0.1 | 17 | .03 | 22 <---
25mph: 14.6 | 0.0 | 12 | .03 | 3 <---
Couldn't believe it when i got the numbers back. To go from 1070 down to 22. Incredible. Never thought it would get that low.
Differences between the 3rd test to the 4th test:
-Cleaned EGR and EGR Tube to plenum
-Cleaned Plenum out
-PCV replaced
-New Injectors
-Denso Distributor Cap
-Denso Rotor
-NGK Plugs
-Fresh Toyota Red Coolant
-Denso o2 Sensor from a bosch
-31" Tires on back instead of 32s
No fancy tricks other than swapping the wheels to a slightly smaller size, didn't have to mess with the VSV or a restrictor plate. So relieved. The only sad event today was that i couldn't get my new tags from AAA since I paid my registration online, i have to wait for the DMV to send them out instead, so i gotta wait a few weeks before i can legally drive it.
Thanks everyone for your help!
Last edited by mbomberz1; 06-23-2014 at 09:53 AM.
06-01-2014, 06:37 PM
#40
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Great news, glad you got that out of the way! I'll have a careful look at the changes you made to see if I haven't covered off any that apply to me.
The good news here in BC is: no more smog check required after 2014!
Jim
The good news here in BC is: no more smog check required after 2014!
Jim
