More power from the 3.slow
03-09-2008, 06:11 AM
#21
I plan to run my 3.0 on the dyno this month along with a 97 3.4 taco and a 97 SC'd 3.4 taco. I will make a pass "with" and one "without" the Jacobs ignition just to clear the air on the Ign debate.
yes, please post it on my performance stat. thread. thats the kind of stuff im looking for.
yes, please post it on my performance stat. thread. thats the kind of stuff im looking for.
03-09-2008, 06:56 AM
#22
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I think MonsterMaxx really said it all and he appears to have some bucks in his motor and is seeing maybe what? 25whp? And he did alot more than intake,headers and exhaust. Even that setup will run you over $1000 and you mights see 15whp at the most and I'm being generous.
I've been racing and around dynos for the last 15 years and I see what mods rsspond on the dyno and getting a bit morer airflow really doesn't show much when you are dealing with an underpowered small motor to begin with.
This goes for the 3.4 too and anything short of FI is really throwing alot of money away. I would just stick with an intake and exhaust and put your hard earned money elsewhere into the truck.
The only time ignition systems make a diff is when the stock system can't handle the power that the motor is making and that's usually a poor design of the OEM system and Toyota has fine ignition systems for almost all their vehicles.
Being around modded engines for over 20 years I saw alot of older cars benefit a little from replacing their outdated systems but with newer cars those aftermarket systems have gone to the wayside since OEM setups usually do the job fine with a lot of leeway.
Even a modded 600hp Supra doesn't need to worry about the OEM ignition system so a 150hp 3.0 won't be needing one either. Even on my Eclipse I was nearly doubling it's WHP and I never did anything concerning the ignition except colder plugs and better wires.
The 3.0 has been around for 20 years now and these threads are showing how little has been found to produce power in the 3.0 and if I had one I just stick with simple cheap mods.
I've been racing and around dynos for the last 15 years and I see what mods rsspond on the dyno and getting a bit morer airflow really doesn't show much when you are dealing with an underpowered small motor to begin with.
This goes for the 3.4 too and anything short of FI is really throwing alot of money away. I would just stick with an intake and exhaust and put your hard earned money elsewhere into the truck.
The only time ignition systems make a diff is when the stock system can't handle the power that the motor is making and that's usually a poor design of the OEM system and Toyota has fine ignition systems for almost all their vehicles.
Being around modded engines for over 20 years I saw alot of older cars benefit a little from replacing their outdated systems but with newer cars those aftermarket systems have gone to the wayside since OEM setups usually do the job fine with a lot of leeway.
Even a modded 600hp Supra doesn't need to worry about the OEM ignition system so a 150hp 3.0 won't be needing one either. Even on my Eclipse I was nearly doubling it's WHP and I never did anything concerning the ignition except colder plugs and better wires.
The 3.0 has been around for 20 years now and these threads are showing how little has been found to produce power in the 3.0 and if I had one I just stick with simple cheap mods.
I would hedge my bets that if more guys DID headers, exhaust, and cams, you would see a lot less 3.4 swap threads. But few have, and I believe Monstermaxx took a different route than those mods - he elected to have head work done if I recall correctly, and got burned by DOA if I'm not mistaken? The problem seems to be also finding good headers & exhausts. The Cams are there (Weasy). Headers (LCE seems to be the new best ones for the 3vze) are there too. NOw LCE also has a proper mandrel bent 2 1/4" exhaust for the 3vze. There is also Thorley who has 2 1/4" mandrel bent exhausts, and proper headers. But these modifications along with cams have become available only in the past few years where many guys opted to do 3.4 swaps instead. Now that these mods are available more readily, it's hard to find someone who will do them over going to the 3.4. But the truth is these mods will make things a lot simpler for most people over spending the huge bucks to do a swap, and cheaper too.
03-09-2008, 12:05 PM
#23
Registered User
Yes, I've done a lot to mine and made a lot of mistakes, bought stuff that doesn't help and gotten screwed by several 'known' 3VZE vendors.
IMHO there are three major problems with the 3VZE that just can't be overcome.
1st, it's a late 80s smog motor. Really guys, what do you expect? The whole EFI system will fight you every step of the way.
2nd, the design flaw of the block/heads is a head gasket leak looking for a place to happen. Even trucks with the very latest gaskets, new bolts and all the trimmings are STILL losing head gaskets. This is something that cannot be easily solved (Toyota/Felpro has spent hundreds of millions on this defect.) This completely prevents you from any kind of forced induction (assuming you also want reliability.)
3rd, the bottom end is weak, poor oiling which WILL lead to early demise when trying to get more performance. Again, any kind of forced induction will quickly destroy the bottom end.
On the performance front, the reason the 3VZE is so hard to get any performance from is that it cannot breath - by design (see #1 above.) So you have to do a LOT of work to get marginal improvements in breathing and even when all's said and done the combustion chamber/flow simply doesn't have the room for much improvement.
IMHO your biggest bang is going to be cams and oversize valves as this is the biggest bottleneck. Still, you probably will see marginal gains on peak power, though you'll see a widening of the powerband which is nice - instead of having 1500rpm of powerband you can probably get 3000rpm of usable powerband (this is the biggest improvement mine has.)
There are countless products produced for the 3VZE that do NOTHING or worse, cost you power & mpg. The oh so popular K&N FPIC will hurt performance! Yes, I said 'hurt'. Two reasons: 1 is that instead of nice cool external air it's breathing all that hot under hood air which on hot days will cost signifigantly. Secondly, the K&N is a 'oil' filter. Too much oil and it slobbers all over, too little and it allows dirt to pass degrading your engine. Also this oil drys out and if you don't re-oil frequently it's not going to filter the air.
In stock form, the 3VZE does OK for a 80s smog motor. It's no powerhouse, it's not very efficient (MPG), but it'll push the truck OK for what it is.
IMHO the very best way to get life out of the 3VZE is to leave it the heck alone and do your basic maintenance.
If you really want performance you need to look hard at swapping. For about the same coin you'd spend making the 3VZE breath better and getting 10-20% more power you can swap in a 3.4 stocker have more power, a more reliable engine, will respond much better to mods and power adders and is more efficient.
Not to mention, that 3.4 stocker will run circles around any hopped up 3VZE and be way way way more reliable.
And let's not forget, the 3.4 is a more modern motor, so it's emissions will be better for the environment.
= win win.
The reason you don't see a lot of good performance kits for the 3VZE is not because no one's doing it, it's because it's not doable. If this engine would survive power adders and respond to performance mods there'd be lots of success stories - there are millions of these trucks out there! You don't see them not because people don't try, but because either they don't perform or it becomes unreliable.
You are probably wondering why I'm still running the 3VZE. The answer is:
First off, while I'm currently running a '94, I started with a '91 and have been buying crap for better than 15yrs now (moved all my goodies from the Rusty New York '91 to the clean Florida '94.)
Secondly, when my 3VZE puked around 1999 (failed headgasket took the bottom end with it) the 3.4 swap wasn't being done yet. I lusted after a LS1, but I don't have a place to work on it, money was real tight at the time and I fell for the lies Tim Jenkins spewed about getting performance from the 3VZE. What started off as a $2k 30 day rebuild ended up be over 12 months of downtime on my daily driver (add the cost of a rental to this bill) and more than $6000 in direct costs. Granted I did headers, cams, porting and polishing, exhaust, ad nausium. I got about 20kmi on this motor before it burned a hole in a piston while towing a nearly empty 6x12 trailer. Cause: unknown.
This time it was a DIY rebuild on as tight a budget as I could swing. The only 'performance' additions I made were enginbldr's oversize valves and to ceramic coat anything that sees fire (piston tops, combustion chambers, valve faces, exhaust ports and the exhaust.) Cost= a little over $2k. Got it back together and it runs pretty decent. It's not as fast as a stock 3.4, but it'll clearly outrun any 3.slow and pulls hard from 3k right to the rev limiter.
I should have done the swap right then and there, said goodbye to the 3.turd and parted out what was good.
Why didn't I? A: no place to work on it. My freekin driveway is tilted at 20° and everything round heads for the storm drain across the street (I've had to climb down in it and retrieve sockets, bolts and one time the creeper.) When I do engine changes I have to tether the cherry picker to the house and use a come-along to move it. = Major PITA to work on, but I wish I'd sucked it up and done it anyway
You want to know the real kicker? Just as I was coming to the end of the last rebuild (around the time we were putting the shortblock together) there was a guy on Pirate selling the whole thing w/ Supercharger for $5k. I'm talking engine, trans, tcase, comp & harness, adapters, headers, SC, 7th injector, etc - the whole shebang....and I didn't do it. Kicking myself so hard it's going to take a surgeon to get my foot out of my ass.
My advise to people looking for more power from their 3VZE is to save their pennies and watch the 'used' listings for the right swap deal. Just say 'no' to the 3.slow.
{I'll be getting a new house soon and I'm going to LS2/4L60/Atlas/Hi9/link it. Like I shoulda done to begin with. I could easily have paid (time & money) for this with what I've spent on the 3VZE drivetrain.}
IMHO there are three major problems with the 3VZE that just can't be overcome.
1st, it's a late 80s smog motor. Really guys, what do you expect? The whole EFI system will fight you every step of the way.
2nd, the design flaw of the block/heads is a head gasket leak looking for a place to happen. Even trucks with the very latest gaskets, new bolts and all the trimmings are STILL losing head gaskets. This is something that cannot be easily solved (Toyota/Felpro has spent hundreds of millions on this defect.) This completely prevents you from any kind of forced induction (assuming you also want reliability.)
3rd, the bottom end is weak, poor oiling which WILL lead to early demise when trying to get more performance. Again, any kind of forced induction will quickly destroy the bottom end.
On the performance front, the reason the 3VZE is so hard to get any performance from is that it cannot breath - by design (see #1 above.) So you have to do a LOT of work to get marginal improvements in breathing and even when all's said and done the combustion chamber/flow simply doesn't have the room for much improvement.
IMHO your biggest bang is going to be cams and oversize valves as this is the biggest bottleneck. Still, you probably will see marginal gains on peak power, though you'll see a widening of the powerband which is nice - instead of having 1500rpm of powerband you can probably get 3000rpm of usable powerband (this is the biggest improvement mine has.)
There are countless products produced for the 3VZE that do NOTHING or worse, cost you power & mpg. The oh so popular K&N FPIC will hurt performance! Yes, I said 'hurt'. Two reasons: 1 is that instead of nice cool external air it's breathing all that hot under hood air which on hot days will cost signifigantly. Secondly, the K&N is a 'oil' filter. Too much oil and it slobbers all over, too little and it allows dirt to pass degrading your engine. Also this oil drys out and if you don't re-oil frequently it's not going to filter the air.
In stock form, the 3VZE does OK for a 80s smog motor. It's no powerhouse, it's not very efficient (MPG), but it'll push the truck OK for what it is.
IMHO the very best way to get life out of the 3VZE is to leave it the heck alone and do your basic maintenance.
If you really want performance you need to look hard at swapping. For about the same coin you'd spend making the 3VZE breath better and getting 10-20% more power you can swap in a 3.4 stocker have more power, a more reliable engine, will respond much better to mods and power adders and is more efficient.
Not to mention, that 3.4 stocker will run circles around any hopped up 3VZE and be way way way more reliable.
And let's not forget, the 3.4 is a more modern motor, so it's emissions will be better for the environment.
= win win.The reason you don't see a lot of good performance kits for the 3VZE is not because no one's doing it, it's because it's not doable. If this engine would survive power adders and respond to performance mods there'd be lots of success stories - there are millions of these trucks out there! You don't see them not because people don't try, but because either they don't perform or it becomes unreliable.
You are probably wondering why I'm still running the 3VZE. The answer is:
First off, while I'm currently running a '94, I started with a '91 and have been buying crap for better than 15yrs now (moved all my goodies from the Rusty New York '91 to the clean Florida '94.)
Secondly, when my 3VZE puked around 1999 (failed headgasket took the bottom end with it) the 3.4 swap wasn't being done yet. I lusted after a LS1, but I don't have a place to work on it, money was real tight at the time and I fell for the lies Tim Jenkins spewed about getting performance from the 3VZE. What started off as a $2k 30 day rebuild ended up be over 12 months of downtime on my daily driver (add the cost of a rental to this bill) and more than $6000 in direct costs. Granted I did headers, cams, porting and polishing, exhaust, ad nausium. I got about 20kmi on this motor before it burned a hole in a piston while towing a nearly empty 6x12 trailer. Cause: unknown.
This time it was a DIY rebuild on as tight a budget as I could swing. The only 'performance' additions I made were enginbldr's oversize valves and to ceramic coat anything that sees fire (piston tops, combustion chambers, valve faces, exhaust ports and the exhaust.) Cost= a little over $2k. Got it back together and it runs pretty decent. It's not as fast as a stock 3.4, but it'll clearly outrun any 3.slow and pulls hard from 3k right to the rev limiter.
I should have done the swap right then and there, said goodbye to the 3.turd and parted out what was good.
Why didn't I? A: no place to work on it. My freekin driveway is tilted at 20° and everything round heads for the storm drain across the street (I've had to climb down in it and retrieve sockets, bolts and one time the creeper.) When I do engine changes I have to tether the cherry picker to the house and use a come-along to move it. = Major PITA to work on, but I wish I'd sucked it up and done it anyway
You want to know the real kicker? Just as I was coming to the end of the last rebuild (around the time we were putting the shortblock together) there was a guy on Pirate selling the whole thing w/ Supercharger for $5k. I'm talking engine, trans, tcase, comp & harness, adapters, headers, SC, 7th injector, etc - the whole shebang....and I didn't do it. Kicking myself so hard it's going to take a surgeon to get my foot out of my ass.
My advise to people looking for more power from their 3VZE is to save their pennies and watch the 'used' listings for the right swap deal. Just say 'no' to the 3.slow.
{I'll be getting a new house soon and I'm going to LS2/4L60/Atlas/Hi9/link it.
Like I shoulda done to begin with. I could easily have paid (time & money) for this with what I've spent on the 3VZE drivetrain.}
Last edited by MonsterMaxx; 03-09-2008 at 01:05 PM.
03-09-2008, 12:45 PM
#24
Registered User
Alright alright alright....
I have the 3.0 in a 92 extra cab 5 speed.
I run 265/70/16 dueler at's
I have the KN kit.
I hold that SOB around 2800 RPMs, it throws down.
Its not like im driving around my mom's mustang GT, but its not a freaking semi-truck either.
The truck is heavy as all hell, not areodynamic AT ALL, and we tend to run tires that are way over sized.
Has anyone here actually ran a 225/75/15 on their 3.0? Probably makes a huge difference in power.
I have the 3.0 in a 92 extra cab 5 speed.
I run 265/70/16 dueler at's
I have the KN kit.
I hold that SOB around 2800 RPMs, it throws down.
Its not like im driving around my mom's mustang GT, but its not a freaking semi-truck either.
The truck is heavy as all hell, not areodynamic AT ALL, and we tend to run tires that are way over sized.
Has anyone here actually ran a 225/75/15 on their 3.0? Probably makes a huge difference in power.
03-09-2008, 12:55 PM
#25
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I agree with A LOT of whats been posted here...don't waste your time and money on changing the 3.0....every time I want to I just think 3.4 swap and its outta my head!
Also, most of these guys are posting about pickups (I have one too) and you have a 4Runner......dude you are carrying a lot more weight than we are and we still can't get these things clipping along!
I run a flowmaster and custom cat-back (2.25") and started with a very well maintained low mileage 5speed pickup.......I gotta rev the hell outta her just to accelerate as well as the traffic around me!
Don't waste your money trying to improve.....just maintain it and enjoy!
P.S. As far as the Jacobs Ignition kit....4Mogger's horror stories totally killed that idea for me!!!
Also, most of these guys are posting about pickups (I have one too) and you have a 4Runner......dude you are carrying a lot more weight than we are and we still can't get these things clipping along!
I run a flowmaster and custom cat-back (2.25") and started with a very well maintained low mileage 5speed pickup.......I gotta rev the hell outta her just to accelerate as well as the traffic around me!
Don't waste your money trying to improve.....just maintain it and enjoy!
P.S. As far as the Jacobs Ignition kit....4Mogger's horror stories totally killed that idea for me!!!
Last edited by fastkevman; 03-09-2008 at 12:56 PM.
03-09-2008, 02:47 PM
#26
Registered User
If I were to even think of modding this engine beyond maybe replacing a stock part with a better one. I did a good cat back sys when my cat was stolen and that helped performance/mpg a little. I did my own ISR mod when the stock stuff got too deteriorated for about $28 and got better throttle response on top of saving dough.
I have a hypothesis: the VAFM is just plain tiny. I mean you have a VAFM that will flow a small fraction of what the rest of the intake ducting will. Without finding say a more modern MAF type sensor that bottleneck will negate most of the other mods.
Maybe someday I will experiment but from what I have seen taking the entire intake system apart for various repairs that VAFM is likely the reason why the engine doesn't respond to mods like you would expect.
Frank
I have a hypothesis: the VAFM is just plain tiny. I mean you have a VAFM that will flow a small fraction of what the rest of the intake ducting will. Without finding say a more modern MAF type sensor that bottleneck will negate most of the other mods.
Maybe someday I will experiment but from what I have seen taking the entire intake system apart for various repairs that VAFM is likely the reason why the engine doesn't respond to mods like you would expect.
Frank
03-09-2008, 03:25 PM
#27
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I've gota 92 ext cab 4x4 , 5 spd. 3.0 , headers , flowmaster, 31 in. rubber, 128,000 miles. I got it because I liked the way it looked and it's reliability. It's my ride back and forth to work and does everything I ask it to do. If I wanted somethig to race or with a lot more power, I sure wouldn't have started with this. I think that 3.0 is a great motor for what it was made to do.
03-10-2008, 03:01 AM
#28
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I have a hypothesis: the VAFM is just plain tiny. I mean you have a VAFM that will flow a small fraction of what the rest of the intake ducting will. Without finding say a more modern MAF type sensor that bottleneck will negate most of the other mods.
Maybe someday I will experiment but from what I have seen taking the entire intake system apart for various repairs that VAFM is likely the reason why the engine doesn't respond to mods like you would expect.
Maybe someday I will experiment but from what I have seen taking the entire intake system apart for various repairs that VAFM is likely the reason why the engine doesn't respond to mods like you would expect.
I'm actually running a Supra VAFM on mine with a 3.0 board installed in it. So far the wide-band A/F meter says its working fine. I don't know if its actually improved anything but it sounds faster
thats gotta count for something in this world of bling and show. I broke my stock VAFM adjusting the mixture (watch the screwdriver don't catch the end of the board when you remove the cover) so I was kinda forced into using my old supra afm project only this time I have a Dynojet WB commander to tune it with.
03-10-2008, 07:51 PM
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I'm actually running a Supra VAFM on mine with a 3.0 board installed in it. So far the wide-band A/F meter says its working fine. I don't know if its actually improved anything but it sounds faster thats gotta count for something in this world of bling and show. I broke my stock VAFM adjusting the mixture (watch the screwdriver don't catch the end of the board when you remove the cover) so I was kinda forced into using my old supra afm project only this time I have a Dynojet WB commander to tune it with.
thats gotta count for something in this world of bling and show. I broke my stock VAFM adjusting the mixture (watch the screwdriver don't catch the end of the board when you remove the cover) so I was kinda forced into using my old supra afm project only this time I have a Dynojet WB commander to tune it with.
03-11-2008, 06:43 AM
#30
Registered User
There was a big MAF conversion project being documented here a year or two ago. If you use the 'search' feature you will find it.
End result, lots of money spend w/ little or no performance gain.
Like I said, there's no 'one' spot that's the problem, it's the entire engine design. Which is why so much needs to be done to get even small gains.
I agree with others that the 3.slow in stock form will get the job of pushing the truck done. It's no rocket or even a good towing motor, but left alone it will get the basic job done.
End result, lots of money spend w/ little or no performance gain.
Like I said, there's no 'one' spot that's the problem, it's the entire engine design. Which is why so much needs to be done to get even small gains.
I agree with others that the 3.slow in stock form will get the job of pushing the truck done. It's no rocket or even a good towing motor, but left alone it will get the basic job done.
Last edited by MonsterMaxx; 03-11-2008 at 06:44 AM.
03-11-2008, 07:43 PM
#31
Registered User
Yes, I've done a lot to mine and made a lot of mistakes, bought stuff that doesn't help and gotten screwed by several 'known' 3VZE vendors.
IMHO there are three major problems with the 3VZE that just can't be overcome.
1st, it's a late 80s smog motor. Really guys, what do you expect? The whole EFI system will fight you every step of the way.
2nd, the design flaw of the block/heads is a head gasket leak looking for a place to happen. Even trucks with the very latest gaskets, new bolts and all the trimmings are STILL losing head gaskets. This is something that cannot be easily solved (Toyota/Felpro has spent hundreds of millions on this defect.) This completely prevents you from any kind of forced induction (assuming you also want reliability.)
3rd, the bottom end is weak, poor oiling which WILL lead to early demise when trying to get more performance. Again, any kind of forced induction will quickly destroy the bottom end.
On the performance front, the reason the 3VZE is so hard to get any performance from is that it cannot breath - by design (see #1 above.) So you have to do a LOT of work to get marginal improvements in breathing and even when all's said and done the combustion chamber/flow simply doesn't have the room for much improvement.
IMHO your biggest bang is going to be cams and oversize valves as this is the biggest bottleneck. Still, you probably will see marginal gains on peak power, though you'll see a widening of the powerband which is nice - instead of having 1500rpm of powerband you can probably get 3000rpm of usable powerband (this is the biggest improvement mine has.)
There are countless products produced for the 3VZE that do NOTHING or worse, cost you power & mpg. The oh so popular K&N FPIC will hurt performance! Yes, I said 'hurt'. Two reasons: 1 is that instead of nice cool external air it's breathing all that hot under hood air which on hot days will cost signifigantly. Secondly, the K&N is a 'oil' filter. Too much oil and it slobbers all over, too little and it allows dirt to pass degrading your engine. Also this oil drys out and if you don't re-oil frequently it's not going to filter the air.
In stock form, the 3VZE does OK for a 80s smog motor. It's no powerhouse, it's not very efficient (MPG), but it'll push the truck OK for what it is.
IMHO the very best way to get life out of the 3VZE is to leave it the heck alone and do your basic maintenance.
If you really want performance you need to look hard at swapping. For about the same coin you'd spend making the 3VZE breath better and getting 10-20% more power you can swap in a 3.4 stocker have more power, a more reliable engine, will respond much better to mods and power adders and is more efficient.
Not to mention, that 3.4 stocker will run circles around any hopped up 3VZE and be way way way more reliable.
And let's not forget, the 3.4 is a more modern motor, so it's emissions will be better for the environment. = win win.
The reason you don't see a lot of good performance kits for the 3VZE is not because no one's doing it, it's because it's not doable. If this engine would survive power adders and respond to performance mods there'd be lots of success stories - there are millions of these trucks out there! You don't see them not because people don't try, but because either they don't perform or it becomes unreliable.
You are probably wondering why I'm still running the 3VZE. The answer is:
First off, while I'm currently running a '94, I started with a '91 and have been buying crap for better than 15yrs now (moved all my goodies from the Rusty New York '91 to the clean Florida '94.)
Secondly, when my 3VZE puked around 1999 (failed headgasket took the bottom end with it) the 3.4 swap wasn't being done yet. I lusted after a LS1, but I don't have a place to work on it, money was real tight at the time and I fell for the lies Tim Jenkins spewed about getting performance from the 3VZE. What started off as a $2k 30 day rebuild ended up be over 12 months of downtime on my daily driver (add the cost of a rental to this bill) and more than $6000 in direct costs. Granted I did headers, cams, porting and polishing, exhaust, ad nausium. I got about 20kmi on this motor before it burned a hole in a piston while towing a nearly empty 6x12 trailer. Cause: unknown.
This time it was a DIY rebuild on as tight a budget as I could swing. The only 'performance' additions I made were enginbldr's oversize valves and to ceramic coat anything that sees fire (piston tops, combustion chambers, valve faces, exhaust ports and the exhaust.) Cost= a little over $2k. Got it back together and it runs pretty decent. It's not as fast as a stock 3.4, but it'll clearly outrun any 3.slow and pulls hard from 3k right to the rev limiter.
I should have done the swap right then and there, said goodbye to the 3.turd and parted out what was good.
Why didn't I? A: no place to work on it. My freekin driveway is tilted at 20° and everything round heads for the storm drain across the street (I've had to climb down in it and retrieve sockets, bolts and one time the creeper.) When I do engine changes I have to tether the cherry picker to the house and use a come-along to move it. = Major PITA to work on, but I wish I'd sucked it up and done it anyway
You want to know the real kicker? Just as I was coming to the end of the last rebuild (around the time we were putting the shortblock together) there was a guy on Pirate selling the whole thing w/ Supercharger for $5k. I'm talking engine, trans, tcase, comp & harness, adapters, headers, SC, 7th injector, etc - the whole shebang....and I didn't do it. Kicking myself so hard it's going to take a surgeon to get my foot out of my ass.
My advise to people looking for more power from their 3VZE is to save their pennies and watch the 'used' listings for the right swap deal. Just say 'no' to the 3.slow.
{I'll be getting a new house soon and I'm going to LS2/4L60/Atlas/Hi9/link it. Like I shoulda done to begin with. I could easily have paid (time & money) for this with what I've spent on the 3VZE drivetrain.}
IMHO there are three major problems with the 3VZE that just can't be overcome.
1st, it's a late 80s smog motor. Really guys, what do you expect? The whole EFI system will fight you every step of the way.
2nd, the design flaw of the block/heads is a head gasket leak looking for a place to happen. Even trucks with the very latest gaskets, new bolts and all the trimmings are STILL losing head gaskets. This is something that cannot be easily solved (Toyota/Felpro has spent hundreds of millions on this defect.) This completely prevents you from any kind of forced induction (assuming you also want reliability.)
3rd, the bottom end is weak, poor oiling which WILL lead to early demise when trying to get more performance. Again, any kind of forced induction will quickly destroy the bottom end.
On the performance front, the reason the 3VZE is so hard to get any performance from is that it cannot breath - by design (see #1 above.) So you have to do a LOT of work to get marginal improvements in breathing and even when all's said and done the combustion chamber/flow simply doesn't have the room for much improvement.
IMHO your biggest bang is going to be cams and oversize valves as this is the biggest bottleneck. Still, you probably will see marginal gains on peak power, though you'll see a widening of the powerband which is nice - instead of having 1500rpm of powerband you can probably get 3000rpm of usable powerband (this is the biggest improvement mine has.)
There are countless products produced for the 3VZE that do NOTHING or worse, cost you power & mpg. The oh so popular K&N FPIC will hurt performance! Yes, I said 'hurt'. Two reasons: 1 is that instead of nice cool external air it's breathing all that hot under hood air which on hot days will cost signifigantly. Secondly, the K&N is a 'oil' filter. Too much oil and it slobbers all over, too little and it allows dirt to pass degrading your engine. Also this oil drys out and if you don't re-oil frequently it's not going to filter the air.
In stock form, the 3VZE does OK for a 80s smog motor. It's no powerhouse, it's not very efficient (MPG), but it'll push the truck OK for what it is.
IMHO the very best way to get life out of the 3VZE is to leave it the heck alone and do your basic maintenance.
If you really want performance you need to look hard at swapping. For about the same coin you'd spend making the 3VZE breath better and getting 10-20% more power you can swap in a 3.4 stocker have more power, a more reliable engine, will respond much better to mods and power adders and is more efficient.
Not to mention, that 3.4 stocker will run circles around any hopped up 3VZE and be way way way more reliable.
And let's not forget, the 3.4 is a more modern motor, so it's emissions will be better for the environment.
= win win.The reason you don't see a lot of good performance kits for the 3VZE is not because no one's doing it, it's because it's not doable. If this engine would survive power adders and respond to performance mods there'd be lots of success stories - there are millions of these trucks out there! You don't see them not because people don't try, but because either they don't perform or it becomes unreliable.
You are probably wondering why I'm still running the 3VZE. The answer is:
First off, while I'm currently running a '94, I started with a '91 and have been buying crap for better than 15yrs now (moved all my goodies from the Rusty New York '91 to the clean Florida '94.)
Secondly, when my 3VZE puked around 1999 (failed headgasket took the bottom end with it) the 3.4 swap wasn't being done yet. I lusted after a LS1, but I don't have a place to work on it, money was real tight at the time and I fell for the lies Tim Jenkins spewed about getting performance from the 3VZE. What started off as a $2k 30 day rebuild ended up be over 12 months of downtime on my daily driver (add the cost of a rental to this bill) and more than $6000 in direct costs. Granted I did headers, cams, porting and polishing, exhaust, ad nausium. I got about 20kmi on this motor before it burned a hole in a piston while towing a nearly empty 6x12 trailer. Cause: unknown.
This time it was a DIY rebuild on as tight a budget as I could swing. The only 'performance' additions I made were enginbldr's oversize valves and to ceramic coat anything that sees fire (piston tops, combustion chambers, valve faces, exhaust ports and the exhaust.) Cost= a little over $2k. Got it back together and it runs pretty decent. It's not as fast as a stock 3.4, but it'll clearly outrun any 3.slow and pulls hard from 3k right to the rev limiter.
I should have done the swap right then and there, said goodbye to the 3.turd and parted out what was good.
Why didn't I? A: no place to work on it. My freekin driveway is tilted at 20° and everything round heads for the storm drain across the street (I've had to climb down in it and retrieve sockets, bolts and one time the creeper.) When I do engine changes I have to tether the cherry picker to the house and use a come-along to move it. = Major PITA to work on, but I wish I'd sucked it up and done it anyway
You want to know the real kicker? Just as I was coming to the end of the last rebuild (around the time we were putting the shortblock together) there was a guy on Pirate selling the whole thing w/ Supercharger for $5k. I'm talking engine, trans, tcase, comp & harness, adapters, headers, SC, 7th injector, etc - the whole shebang....and I didn't do it. Kicking myself so hard it's going to take a surgeon to get my foot out of my ass.
My advise to people looking for more power from their 3VZE is to save their pennies and watch the 'used' listings for the right swap deal. Just say 'no' to the 3.slow.
{I'll be getting a new house soon and I'm going to LS2/4L60/Atlas/Hi9/link it.
Like I shoulda done to begin with. I could easily have paid (time & money) for this with what I've spent on the 3VZE drivetrain.}LSx whatever is going to require extensive cutting of the engine bay. If you go that route, honestly you are limited to about 550 crank hp from the stock LS2. After that the engine is suspect to pop at anytime.
You could however grab an LQ9 (all iron 6.0L in the gm pickups) with bigger ARP sticks, forged internals, and about 20psi of boost from an 81mm or similarly sized turbo. The engine would easily handle any power level you want, teh drive train not so much.....lol
03-11-2008, 09:35 PM
#32
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Wow I guess I hit a major nerve on my question to you all. I think for me the best thing to do is just keep driving it til she drops. Everybody knows it's got its problems, even Toyota is not perfect. I will just keep maintaining it and lets face it I have had it about 3 years with little or no problems and she still gets me up to some sweet fishing lakes, gets to and from work, saved me this snowy winter, what more can I ask from it. If it was not born to be a powerhouse why force it. I am planning on getting a double cab tundra soon so I will spend my hard earned $ on that.
Thanks for all your input, I think it's time to put this one to bed. You all can continue your thoughts on it but I think I have heard enough.
Thanks for all your input, I think it's time to put this one to bed. You all can continue your thoughts on it but I think I have heard enough.
03-11-2008, 10:19 PM
#33
Registered User
Wow I guess I hit a major nerve on my question to you all. I think for me the best thing to do is just keep driving it til she drops. Everybody knows it's got its problems, even Toyota is not perfect. I will just keep maintaining it and lets face it I have had it about 3 years with little or no problems and she still gets me up to some sweet fishing lakes, gets to and from work, saved me this snowy winter, what more can I ask from it. If it was not born to be a powerhouse why force it. I am planning on getting a double cab tundra soon so I will spend my hard earned $ on that.
Thanks for all your input, I think it's time to put this one to bed. You all can continue your thoughts on it but I think I have heard enough.
Thanks for all your input, I think it's time to put this one to bed. You all can continue your thoughts on it but I think I have heard enough.
As far as your Tundra plans are concerned, are you considering a 04-06
Dcab or one of the new ones? If your looking at a late model, try and find
an 05. Made the most power (271hp) of those years.
03-12-2008, 03:19 AM
#34
Registered User
IF you do want to do ONE powerupgrade that will make a difference nad be relatively cheap - go with the cams. Itll make a difference in the butt dynometer, not huge, but it will.
I have OS valves, PNP, cams, grade 10 headbolts, FIPK, 2.25" exhaust, etc....
I have OS valves, PNP, cams, grade 10 headbolts, FIPK, 2.25" exhaust, etc....
03-12-2008, 07:23 PM
#36
Registered User
OP - to go fast you will have goals, they are:
1. FAST
2. CHEAP
3. RELIABLE
You get to pick only 2. Choose wisely. MonsterMaxx could further polish his 3.0. He could get custom pistons made with 5vz-fe rods and the bottom end would be stable to 400-500 hp. ARP headstuds would run 200-300. MLS headgaskets or a fireringed head/block combo with Cu HGs. Then of course an ass ton of boost courtesy of an ebay turbo. It could be made reliable but it would be rediculously expensive. Figure 6k-8k worth of investment before you start to address the drive train issues that might pop up.
Shoes -
Enough to make my GTO run into the low 11s and probably into the 10s pending my driving. Should have focused on that instead....lol
Probably 3k or so all total....the last step for me would be getting custom pistons (~1000), 5vzfe rods (~500), true ARP studs (~300), then a turbo system with supporting mods (~1000.) In other words about 3k more stuff to get a whopping 250 rwhp. That all assumes my old ass tranny didnt swallow a grenade and kill the clutch packs....
HOWEVER my 4runner IS running better now than it ever has since I checked the valve lash that was SUPPOSED to have been done for me by the VERY repuitable machine shop.... Two valves had 0.000" clearance btwn the cam and the shim - ie no compression in those cylinders courtesy of open valves!! Fixed that and whola bottom end power galor! (well for the 3vze)
Having said all this, Im more interested in modding my GTO. My goat is making somewhere in the realm of 300+ rwhp and 340+ rwtq bone stock. Dyno tuning will bump those both up by about 20, give me better area under the curve for only 400 and change. Then for another 1k I can pickup another 150hp courtesy of a 150 wet shot. Then Im knocking on the door of 10s with a street driven vehicle... The best part about my GTO is the best mod to gain power with is the driver mod. Mash the gas to the floor or let the clutch out too quick and youll do a John Force style burn out quite literally incinerating your tires.... Launch properly and you cut a full second off of your 1/4 mile time. The 3vze in any iteration will never be able to make that claim if still inside the engine bay of a 4000+lb vehicle.
Though I do imagine a beefed up 3vze on boost in a nice lightweight dune buggy would be fun as hell......
1. FAST
2. CHEAP
3. RELIABLE
You get to pick only 2. Choose wisely. MonsterMaxx could further polish his 3.0. He could get custom pistons made with 5vz-fe rods and the bottom end would be stable to 400-500 hp. ARP headstuds would run 200-300. MLS headgaskets or a fireringed head/block combo with Cu HGs. Then of course an ass ton of boost courtesy of an ebay turbo. It could be made reliable but it would be rediculously expensive. Figure 6k-8k worth of investment before you start to address the drive train issues that might pop up.
Shoes -
Enough to make my GTO run into the low 11s and probably into the 10s pending my driving. Should have focused on that instead....lol
Probably 3k or so all total....the last step for me would be getting custom pistons (~1000), 5vzfe rods (~500), true ARP studs (~300), then a turbo system with supporting mods (~1000.) In other words about 3k more stuff to get a whopping 250 rwhp. That all assumes my old ass tranny didnt swallow a grenade and kill the clutch packs....
HOWEVER my 4runner IS running better now than it ever has since I checked the valve lash that was SUPPOSED to have been done for me by the VERY repuitable machine shop.... Two valves had 0.000" clearance btwn the cam and the shim - ie no compression in those cylinders courtesy of open valves!! Fixed that and whola bottom end power galor! (well for the 3vze)
Having said all this, Im more interested in modding my GTO. My goat is making somewhere in the realm of 300+ rwhp and 340+ rwtq bone stock. Dyno tuning will bump those both up by about 20, give me better area under the curve for only 400 and change. Then for another 1k I can pickup another 150hp courtesy of a 150 wet shot. Then Im knocking on the door of 10s with a street driven vehicle... The best part about my GTO is the best mod to gain power with is the driver mod. Mash the gas to the floor or let the clutch out too quick and youll do a John Force style burn out quite literally incinerating your tires.... Launch properly and you cut a full second off of your 1/4 mile time. The 3vze in any iteration will never be able to make that claim if still inside the engine bay of a 4000+lb vehicle.
Though I do imagine a beefed up 3vze on boost in a nice lightweight dune buggy would be fun as hell......
Last edited by Bumpin' Yota; 03-12-2008 at 07:28 PM.
07-26-2008, 04:59 PM
#37
Hi I just wanted to ask about my 95 4runner sr5 4x4 AUTO 3 slow.I purchased the runner July 1st 08 and it has 169,000 miles I have had to replace a lot of engine parts just to get her power up but it doesn't seem to change much.I have never had such a slow runner and it is slow to take off but is a little faster with the ect on but I reall don't know if it will maintain hwy speeds because of how slow it is around town.I haven't been on the hwy yet to know because of slow power is this normal ? and can I 4wheel with this thing? I hope that I havent purchased a lemon?.....
Last edited by buckz6319; 07-27-2008 at 04:12 AM.
07-26-2008, 05:32 PM
#38
Registered User
Bucks, maybe you have a clogged catalytic converter or something. Unless you are are really over geared, holding speed on flat ground should be easy. We'll it's easy for my 94 auto 3.0.
Do the seafoam, these engines run open loop early and load themselves up with carbon which excites the knock sensor retarding the timing. The result is no power or MPG.
Frank
Do the seafoam, these engines run open loop early and load themselves up with carbon which excites the knock sensor retarding the timing. The result is no power or MPG.
Frank
07-27-2008, 04:13 AM
#39
Well holding speed on flat ground is no problem but when maintaining it on swells or hills i have to take off the OD and maybe I will remove the cat because in my county there is not a emissions test requirement
