Flat cam lobes
09-13-2010, 12:21 AM
#61
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Thank you sir. I would like to match that Rocker up. PM sent. Also since you have recipts. Where did those Rockers come from?
I really like Yotatech. There is a lot of information here albeit somewhat overwhelming and disorganized.
The thing that really amazes me is how little dot connecting has gone on. What I mean is I came on here a very short time ago with some serious questions. I found volumes of information and some of the answers to my questions but they were strewn across the site. I couldn't find one thread about flat cams or rocker issues, but as soon as I post this thread they come out of the woodwork, same with the piston ring issue. Nobody had taken what seemed to be localized issues and pieced the puzzle together to find what are large problems.
Well at least these two issues have a light on them.
I really like Yotatech. There is a lot of information here albeit somewhat overwhelming and disorganized.
The thing that really amazes me is how little dot connecting has gone on. What I mean is I came on here a very short time ago with some serious questions. I found volumes of information and some of the answers to my questions but they were strewn across the site. I couldn't find one thread about flat cams or rocker issues, but as soon as I post this thread they come out of the woodwork, same with the piston ring issue. Nobody had taken what seemed to be localized issues and pieced the puzzle together to find what are large problems.
Well at least these two issues have a light on them.
09-13-2010, 01:44 AM
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I will look at the receipts today and let you know where they came from. I remember they were from some internet wholesaler, not EB.
I think most of the problem with the dot connecting you mentioned is that most on here are not pro's like you and Ted are. Some are pro fabricators, and have really advance the skills of the rest of us. But not to many pro engine builders. And the ones that are work at a dealer, or a shop where they would only use OEM parts, not the cheap stuff.
And then you add to the fact the most would just be flat embarrassed to post some of these problems after a long rebuild that they put all of their skills and patients into. And then others would just cut their losses, and sell the thing after they have some of these issues.
Like I can guarantee someone else has installed a head on a 22re with the cam dowel at the 6 o'clock position. But few would mention it. And the FSM does not tell you place it at 12 o'clock before installation. In fact it says to torque down the head, then roll the cam to 12 o'clock.
I will take that rocker apart and get it out to you tomorrow.
Later
I think most of the problem with the dot connecting you mentioned is that most on here are not pro's like you and Ted are. Some are pro fabricators, and have really advance the skills of the rest of us. But not to many pro engine builders. And the ones that are work at a dealer, or a shop where they would only use OEM parts, not the cheap stuff.
And then you add to the fact the most would just be flat embarrassed to post some of these problems after a long rebuild that they put all of their skills and patients into. And then others would just cut their losses, and sell the thing after they have some of these issues.
Like I can guarantee someone else has installed a head on a 22re with the cam dowel at the 6 o'clock position. But few would mention it. And the FSM does not tell you place it at 12 o'clock before installation. In fact it says to torque down the head, then roll the cam to 12 o'clock.
I will take that rocker apart and get it out to you tomorrow.
Later
09-14-2010, 10:41 AM
#64
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How are the contact pads attached to a rocker arm?
My 88 has a bad rocker...the pad is somehow still attached...but is very loose? Can you tell if its oem from a picture?
My 88 has a bad rocker...the pad is somehow still attached...but is very loose? Can you tell if its oem from a picture?
09-14-2010, 12:22 PM
#65
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I have only ever seen a few shot cams and those were in chevys or fords that were abused like crazy.
Kind of scares me though because my motor only has about 10K miles on it and reground cams--so i hope i dont run into this issue.....
Kind of scares me though because my motor only has about 10K miles on it and reground cams--so i hope i dont run into this issue.....
09-14-2010, 02:15 PM
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I would really REALLY like to have that Rocker please. I will PM you with my address information. I will also Pay Pal you money for shipping if you need, but I would love to get my hands on that thing.
As far as I can tell the aftermarket ones I have seen have a much larger pad with sharp square corners. The OEM rockers have a much smaller pad and soft slightly rounded corners. But that may not always be the case.
09-14-2010, 02:20 PM
#67
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Sure. Ill be more than happy to send it to you. I plan on tearing it down for the chain here in the next week or so. Have a decent used oem one? Ill swap ya...save me from buying a new one.
I swear that pad is barely hanging on there.....like a loose tooth...!!!
Between that and the chain...it makes an aweful racket.
I might even have a picture...lemme look around my pictures and such
I swear that pad is barely hanging on there.....like a loose tooth...!!!
Between that and the chain...it makes an aweful racket.
I might even have a picture...lemme look around my pictures and such
09-14-2010, 04:09 PM
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This is an interesting thread, haven't read all of it yet but it's got me wondering now since I installed a new Street RV head with the 268C Torkr cam from Engnbldr earlier this year with 215k. I went back and forth with Ted with emails on what to do and I wasn't aware, or did he mention of any special break in procedure for the cam or changing out the entire rocker arm assembly. The only thing he mentioned...cause I thought about changing the rockers was that I should buy everything OEM. Ted said he hasn't found a manufacture yet that he trusts for valve-train parts.
I ended up only changing the valve adjusting set screws as some of the original ones had pitting on the tips. Went to Toyota for that. Other then that I used my original rocker arms and rocker shafts with the new head. I could be wrong but I thought Ted mentioned that if the rockers are not worn I should be good....I don't fully remember now.
So no breaking in my cam like how you guy's discussed and I'm reusing my original rocker arms and shafts. About the only thing I did was pour oil all over the cam and rockers before putting the valve cover on and firing it up.
I've already drove almost 4k so far and it's been running great and strong. Should I just expect to have problems in the near future now????
I ended up only changing the valve adjusting set screws as some of the original ones had pitting on the tips. Went to Toyota for that. Other then that I used my original rocker arms and rocker shafts with the new head. I could be wrong but I thought Ted mentioned that if the rockers are not worn I should be good....I don't fully remember now.
So no breaking in my cam like how you guy's discussed and I'm reusing my original rocker arms and shafts. About the only thing I did was pour oil all over the cam and rockers before putting the valve cover on and firing it up.
I've already drove almost 4k so far and it's been running great and strong. Should I just expect to have problems in the near future now????
09-15-2010, 06:42 PM
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Trainwreck I will get those rockers out tomorrow. I am sending a good one and the one that failed. I will Also post where they came from. I can tell you they don't look or feel like Toyota rockers. They feel much lighter.
I was looking at the oil chart in the FSM today. It says for temp that we have outside now. I should be running 20w50. Do you feel that we could be running to light of an oil in these little engines now a days?
I was looking at the oil chart in the FSM today. It says for temp that we have outside now. I should be running 20w50. Do you feel that we could be running to light of an oil in these little engines now a days?
09-15-2010, 09:51 PM
#72
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Untill I see or hear otherwise Ted seems to feel confident that his cam is good quality. I don't jump on bandwaggons or make assumptions out of thin air. From what I have heard quite a few people have used HIS cam and not had problems.
My original post was mostly about the EP-32 cam and other cheep cams that fail at a high rate.
So to be direct. You should be fine. IF you are not please inform us.
Thank you
09-15-2010, 10:00 PM
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Trainwreck I will get those rockers out tomorrow. I am sending a good one and the one that failed. I will Also post where they came from. I can tell you they don't look or feel like Toyota rockers. They feel much lighter.
I was looking at the oil chart in the FSM today. It says for temp that we have outside now. I should be running 20w50. Do you feel that we could be running to light of an oil in these little engines now a days?
I was looking at the oil chart in the FSM today. It says for temp that we have outside now. I should be running 20w50. Do you feel that we could be running to light of an oil in these little engines now a days?
Thank you very much for sending the Rockers.
The oil cap says 10W-30 Obviously different places in the US have different temperature ranges. The chart shows 10-30 covering a pretty large temp spread. I don't know what area of the country you are from but unless you are in death valley I personally think 20W50 is awefully thick. Unless you have a warn out tired motor you're trying to squeeze the last bit of life out of.
Also I have heard a lot of 22R/22RE engines rattle uppon start up because of improper oil filter designs which allow oil to drain back into the block. This starves the oil system for a few seconds while the pump replaces that drained back oil and then has to build preassure as well.
As to how that equates with cam wear......... too thick of oil will take a long time to build preassure and could cause Rocker to shaft wear. But I would doubt it would cause cam or rocker face wear because the cam is splashed into oil as it turns, instanty lubricating them.
But the rocker shaft doesn't sit in oil and needs that oil preassure to combat wear.
Does that answer your question? Do you have any comments about my train of thought? pertaining to cam wear
Last edited by Trainwreckinseattle; 09-15-2010 at 10:04 PM.
09-15-2010, 10:28 PM
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Untill I see or hear otherwise Ted seems to feel confident that his cam is good quality. I don't jump on bandwaggons or make assumptions out of thin air. From what I have heard quite a few people have used HIS cam and not had problems.
My original post was mostly about the EP-32 cam and other cheep cams that fail at a high rate.
So to be direct. You should be fine. IF you are not please inform us.
Thank you
My original post was mostly about the EP-32 cam and other cheep cams that fail at a high rate.
So to be direct. You should be fine. IF you are not please inform us.
Thank you
I'm in Phoenix AZ and in the summer it's one of the hottest places to be, that and I have a high mileage 22RE (219k) now. I feel the 20W-50 has helped due to the hot climate and especially with burning less oil through the rings.
I hope my valvetrain stays together for a long time.
09-16-2010, 06:01 PM
#75
>>>*I see the question on camshaft/rocker arms pop up from time to time on many sites, actually. I have been in a few factories and watched the process, same with many other items. Being a Mechanical Engineer has it's advantages when selecting a company line to supply, it helps me to know what I am looking at.
Most aftermarket rocker arms are pure aluminum, with a heat treated steel wear pad. Wear points protected by oil must be disimiliar materials, thus hardness. My own tests using a 13 PH solution of Sodium Hydroxide showed very fast "fussing" of the pure aluminum, the factory Toyota arms do discolor but just sit there, they are likely a Silicon/Copper/Aluminum alloy but I never got around to testing that to be sure. (I am pretending to be retired now...*LOL**..) They simply do not expand as much. Drop Rockwell tests showed similar hardness on the pads, the Toyota pad is a different alloy steel though, and appears to be cast steel which has marvelous wear characteristics. Aftermarket types are easy to spot, sharper edges and a machined steel piece.
Wear is from friction causing heat, the rocker pad actually spot welds slightly and then is torn loose, this causes rapid lobe and pad wear.
Different alloys, pure aluminum expands, in an overheat situation the pads can sometimes come loose. The factory arms do not do this. Then there is a narrow point of contact and the pads create very high friction as they move around. Once cooled off, they may even appear to not be loose, but odds are high they were when running.
This is always rapid failure once scarring starts, it penetrates the oil film and the lobe will fail. This is why we do not supply aftermarket arms, not until we get one I can test that passes. It's now been six years and we are still looking, so we reface the factory ones and have nearly no problems. Same thing there, one can see the difference instantly on the grinder.
Many many years ago, (I am 68 so I have been at this stuff for awhile) cam lobe failures were common, especially as engines began to develop real power, thus more aggressive cam lobes.. Oil manufacturers added Zinc in the range of up to 1200 PPM. Zinc creates a molecule thick layer and since it is attracted to cast iron, this eliminated metal to metal contact and solved that.
Along came the EPA, they quickly discovered the problems with catalytic convertors and Zinc, the same that happened with lead. Zinc was dropped to 1000 PPM, then 800 PPM and even less. Again, we began see lobe concerns, especially on Chevies and Mopars with smaller base circle cam designs. On the Toyota, it hasn't proven to be as problematic as there is only 60# seat tension using that spring, plus it is a slide follower design rather than rotational.
There are prelubes (ZDDP) that can easily be obtained that contain the Zinc needed for initial startup, perfectly legal and not a problem, and no harm to the cat from them.. Those who use it will never see a sudden lobe failure happen quickly after startup. Once fully bedded in, the cam lobes will run normally for many years without problems.
Now suffer a radical overheat, dirty/no oil, etc? Well. Anything will fail in that situation.
One thing here, nearly ALL camshafts produced by ALL manufacturers will test exactly the same hardness, within a simple Rockwell point or two. This is something I know for sure since we supply literally thousands annually. There is ONE company in China, they can't even cast them straight let alone get the alloy pour right. None of those would ever get past my grinder, they go straight into the scrap bin. One sub-supplier sent us 25 blanks last year, sources were short so they bought some out without telling us. We sent those right back and just went without until we could get the correct part..
No grinder operator can possibly miss the difference.
I completely disagree with the comments on the EP32 cams being "cheap". Those are a fine product, we don't use them because we don't buy finished products. We buy direct, and have them machined to our spec. Then we Parkerize them also, just added protection since many home users may not have a special cam lube handy. Then a good high pressure product like Moly paste or Gear Grease usually works just fine, but we would always prefer to have some ZDDP additive handy for any new engine.......*EB
Most aftermarket rocker arms are pure aluminum, with a heat treated steel wear pad. Wear points protected by oil must be disimiliar materials, thus hardness. My own tests using a 13 PH solution of Sodium Hydroxide showed very fast "fussing" of the pure aluminum, the factory Toyota arms do discolor but just sit there, they are likely a Silicon/Copper/Aluminum alloy but I never got around to testing that to be sure. (I am pretending to be retired now...*LOL**..) They simply do not expand as much. Drop Rockwell tests showed similar hardness on the pads, the Toyota pad is a different alloy steel though, and appears to be cast steel which has marvelous wear characteristics. Aftermarket types are easy to spot, sharper edges and a machined steel piece.
Wear is from friction causing heat, the rocker pad actually spot welds slightly and then is torn loose, this causes rapid lobe and pad wear.
Different alloys, pure aluminum expands, in an overheat situation the pads can sometimes come loose. The factory arms do not do this. Then there is a narrow point of contact and the pads create very high friction as they move around. Once cooled off, they may even appear to not be loose, but odds are high they were when running.
This is always rapid failure once scarring starts, it penetrates the oil film and the lobe will fail. This is why we do not supply aftermarket arms, not until we get one I can test that passes. It's now been six years and we are still looking, so we reface the factory ones and have nearly no problems. Same thing there, one can see the difference instantly on the grinder.
Many many years ago, (I am 68 so I have been at this stuff for awhile) cam lobe failures were common, especially as engines began to develop real power, thus more aggressive cam lobes.. Oil manufacturers added Zinc in the range of up to 1200 PPM. Zinc creates a molecule thick layer and since it is attracted to cast iron, this eliminated metal to metal contact and solved that.
Along came the EPA, they quickly discovered the problems with catalytic convertors and Zinc, the same that happened with lead. Zinc was dropped to 1000 PPM, then 800 PPM and even less. Again, we began see lobe concerns, especially on Chevies and Mopars with smaller base circle cam designs. On the Toyota, it hasn't proven to be as problematic as there is only 60# seat tension using that spring, plus it is a slide follower design rather than rotational.
There are prelubes (ZDDP) that can easily be obtained that contain the Zinc needed for initial startup, perfectly legal and not a problem, and no harm to the cat from them.. Those who use it will never see a sudden lobe failure happen quickly after startup. Once fully bedded in, the cam lobes will run normally for many years without problems.
Now suffer a radical overheat, dirty/no oil, etc? Well. Anything will fail in that situation.
One thing here, nearly ALL camshafts produced by ALL manufacturers will test exactly the same hardness, within a simple Rockwell point or two. This is something I know for sure since we supply literally thousands annually. There is ONE company in China, they can't even cast them straight let alone get the alloy pour right. None of those would ever get past my grinder, they go straight into the scrap bin. One sub-supplier sent us 25 blanks last year, sources were short so they bought some out without telling us. We sent those right back and just went without until we could get the correct part..
No grinder operator can possibly miss the difference.
I completely disagree with the comments on the EP32 cams being "cheap". Those are a fine product, we don't use them because we don't buy finished products. We buy direct, and have them machined to our spec. Then we Parkerize them also, just added protection since many home users may not have a special cam lube handy. Then a good high pressure product like Moly paste or Gear Grease usually works just fine, but we would always prefer to have some ZDDP additive handy for any new engine.......*EB
09-16-2010, 06:56 PM
#76
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EB thanks for posting. I just suffered a cam failure on a new to me 94 pickup with 4k on the rebuild. The rebuild was with your rebuild kit, LCE pro street cam, and after market rockers. Lots of power, but a slight louder than normal valve tick. After a good weekend of wheeling, the tick turned really bad. Still great power though. A quick look and I saw the bad rocker, and worn down lobe.
I had one of your stock heads with a 268 cam sitting here waiting to go on another rebuild. So the swap began. I tore the engine down to the block replaced the oil pump, water pump, timing chain, head with your products. Rockers are referb'ed Toyota rockers. All went pretty well, a few learning points but nothing big.
I started it tonight with mobile one conventional 10w30, Toyota filter, Lucas zinc break in formula. Cam lobes were lubed well with assembly lube, and then a quart of oil pored over the valves before start up.
It cranked for about 10 seconds then started. It ran for about 5 mins at 2000-2500 rpms, then had to shut it off to check the coolant. I was by myself. It was low of course, so topped it off. Then another 20 minutes of running at 2000-2500 rpms. Took the valve cover off set the torque wrench to 65lbs. The head bolts were origionaly torqued to 61lbs. They did not move and the torque wrench just clicked at 65lbs. So I left them as they are. Adjusted the valves again. Changed the oil, without the zinc additive. Set the timing. And took it down the road.
I have to say I think this is now the quietest 22re I have heard. And gets down the road nice.
Thanks for your help on the emails. And Thanks for your help in threads like this. I hope to get years of service out of this little guy now.
Trainwreck, I got the lifters sent out to you today. Lifters were purchased at "Johns Foreign Engines, LA Center WA 98629". They were purchases on 10/16/06, so a while ago.
Once again thanks for your help, and thanks for starting these types of threads. They have been a great help.
Later
I had one of your stock heads with a 268 cam sitting here waiting to go on another rebuild. So the swap began. I tore the engine down to the block replaced the oil pump, water pump, timing chain, head with your products. Rockers are referb'ed Toyota rockers. All went pretty well, a few learning points but nothing big.
I started it tonight with mobile one conventional 10w30, Toyota filter, Lucas zinc break in formula. Cam lobes were lubed well with assembly lube, and then a quart of oil pored over the valves before start up.
It cranked for about 10 seconds then started. It ran for about 5 mins at 2000-2500 rpms, then had to shut it off to check the coolant. I was by myself. It was low of course, so topped it off. Then another 20 minutes of running at 2000-2500 rpms. Took the valve cover off set the torque wrench to 65lbs. The head bolts were origionaly torqued to 61lbs. They did not move and the torque wrench just clicked at 65lbs. So I left them as they are. Adjusted the valves again. Changed the oil, without the zinc additive. Set the timing. And took it down the road.
I have to say I think this is now the quietest 22re I have heard. And gets down the road nice.
Thanks for your help on the emails. And Thanks for your help in threads like this. I hope to get years of service out of this little guy now.
Trainwreck, I got the lifters sent out to you today. Lifters were purchased at "Johns Foreign Engines, LA Center WA 98629". They were purchases on 10/16/06, so a while ago.
Once again thanks for your help, and thanks for starting these types of threads. They have been a great help.
Later
09-16-2010, 10:06 PM
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What a read, so far. i'm heading over to pick up my street head from Tod tomorrow. Tearing off the top and front of the engine and replacing it with all the parts from EB. New 268 thats been waiting for an install too. There is no doubt in my mind that i'm using the factory rockers after the last few pages i read. no worries, just do it right the first time.
09-17-2010, 04:24 AM
#78
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everything that EB has stated so far in this tread especially his last post is consistent with what was told to me when I rebuilt my engine. Funny thing is it was Todd not Ted, I had talked to during my rebuild. So Ted taught Todd very well.
09-19-2010, 09:09 AM
#79
Hey Trainwreck, long time no speakage, lol.
Not sure if you've seen my troubleshooting thread at all, but around 2 months of exhausting troubleshooting of EFI system, bouncing vacuum, no variation of hiccup upon running on Full "Air/Propane" led me, finally(through much help from mechanics and Yotatech buddies .....AND Ted and TOD at Engnbldr!) to find that my CAM WAS TOAST. I had a full rebuild with brand new rockers, etc....EVERYTHING new in the entire motor... but the guy talked me out of using a new CAM.... He said, "Nahhhhhh, this one's fine... just break it in like I say, and you'll be good to go". Well, I had a hiccup before the build, 20K miles or so that I never paid much attention to... It remained after the build and many new sensors, exhaustive testing of the EFI system, including ECU, etc., ...as well as many days on the Ignition system... When I pulled the cover to adjust the valves for the 3RD TIME IN 700MILES..... I found what you can see on my thread(sorry, no time to paste pics from Photobucket right now).. A BADLY pitted CAM with weird wear, chunks missing(I believe it was like that before I ever started the new motor up)...and it just would NEVER stop having this perpetual yet non-steady miss....
I've replaced the CAM with a 261 from Engnbldr.com and I will be updating my troubleshooting thread asap. I will probably start another thread, just for the CAM swap.....granting it GOES WELL!!!! lol.
Thanks for posting this.... Great read and I'll be checking back, soon. Always nice to read your stuff, Sir!
Mark
PS> GREAT input from Xxxtreme! Gotta dig that yotatechie! lol.
Not sure if you've seen my troubleshooting thread at all, but around 2 months of exhausting troubleshooting of EFI system, bouncing vacuum, no variation of hiccup upon running on Full "Air/Propane" led me, finally(through much help from mechanics and Yotatech buddies .....AND Ted and TOD at Engnbldr!) to find that my CAM WAS TOAST. I had a full rebuild with brand new rockers, etc....EVERYTHING new in the entire motor... but the guy talked me out of using a new CAM.... He said, "Nahhhhhh, this one's fine... just break it in like I say, and you'll be good to go". Well, I had a hiccup before the build, 20K miles or so that I never paid much attention to... It remained after the build and many new sensors, exhaustive testing of the EFI system, including ECU, etc., ...as well as many days on the Ignition system... When I pulled the cover to adjust the valves for the 3RD TIME IN 700MILES..... I found what you can see on my thread(sorry, no time to paste pics from Photobucket right now).. A BADLY pitted CAM with weird wear, chunks missing(I believe it was like that before I ever started the new motor up)...and it just would NEVER stop having this perpetual yet non-steady miss....
I've replaced the CAM with a 261 from Engnbldr.com and I will be updating my troubleshooting thread asap. I will probably start another thread, just for the CAM swap.....granting it GOES WELL!!!! lol.
Thanks for posting this.... Great read and I'll be checking back, soon. Always nice to read your stuff, Sir!
Mark
PS> GREAT input from Xxxtreme! Gotta dig that yotatechie! lol.
