Failed emissions for the fifth time
#22
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so the conclusion...
bad catalytic converter...$250
thanks again to everyone who gave their advice
bad catalytic converter...$250
thanks again to everyone who gave their advice
Last edited by yzrider273; 11-06-2009 at 12:33 PM.
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#25
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Ok stop, I failed emissions 4 times. Had a chevy 350 with no cats or emissions equip. 800 cfm 4 barrel and HEI dist ..
I ran the tank to 1 gallon of fuel and added 4-5 bottles of 99% isopropyl alcohol from fred meyer. $1.99 each.
Let the vehicle warm up, drove it down the freeway an exit or two and headed straight to the emissions place. Made sure idle was at 1100 (limit for testing) and when I did the dyno test I made sure I was going faster than they wanted but within range.
Passed with flying colors.
Retard your timing a bit so it burns everything off.
Change your oil before you go, the old oil will shoot bad fumes which won't burn in your intake.
Let me know how it goes.
I ran the tank to 1 gallon of fuel and added 4-5 bottles of 99% isopropyl alcohol from fred meyer. $1.99 each.
Let the vehicle warm up, drove it down the freeway an exit or two and headed straight to the emissions place. Made sure idle was at 1100 (limit for testing) and when I did the dyno test I made sure I was going faster than they wanted but within range.
Passed with flying colors.
Retard your timing a bit so it burns everything off.
Change your oil before you go, the old oil will shoot bad fumes which won't burn in your intake.
Let me know how it goes.
The cat. dose vary little with the NOx. A three way cat. takes care of some of the NOx produced but the main issue is cumbustions temp. too high. If you have not replaced your cat. you should, I do every time I need to smog. Cat. do go bad vary easy due to bad O2 sensor.
Last edited by dark_fairytales; 11-06-2009 at 11:59 PM.
#26
Wow,I would hate to see if you were trying to be rude.My SPX chassis dyno doesnt know if its Commiefornia or BFE,it just knows how to read what comes out of the tailpipe.Unless your dynos run in reverse,Im pretty sure they are similar.The guy asked for advice,and he was given what has worked for others and myself.Engines are engines,and emissions,while confusing to the unknowing,are basic.My Virgina emissions inspector and technician repair license validates any input I offer.While you are correct that nox is a combustion chamber temp problem,your assumption that the cat has a minimal effect on nox is not.Many times the catylyst material simply loses its ability to convert gasses,hence the after cat o2 sensor on cali obd1 systems on later toyotas to moniter converter effeciency.I see no reason to tinker with the AFM unless serious engine modifications have been made.Most efforts in that area are misguided,at best.Im not sure why you would think the engine is rich from the factory,and I think your comments about HC and its relationship to nox to be confusing.High HC readings usually mask NOX,due to the cooling affect of the extra fuel.I think you might need a brush up on the basics of the internal combustion engine{50 state edition}.
#27
and I told him the cat was bad earlier.$250 seems high for a cat,but it is from the state that gave us nancy pelosi ,so go figure.Finally,I once dynoed a cavalier with a disconnected plug wire and it passed.Converters do an amazing job
Last edited by tim a.; 11-07-2009 at 01:39 PM.
#28
I have also heard of that trick using acetone.High nox is high combustion chamber temp.You could try advancing timing to see if that affects anything.Or a lower temp thermostat.I have seen guys pull a thermostat and run straight water in the radiator with a little timing adjustment to get them to pass{obd 1 systems are pretty basic}.I think your converter might be taking a poo,but some of these tricks might get you to slide by.
i am failing also from nox and i cleaned the egr, or so i thought and now im failing by even more and with hc so possibly cat now
#29
hi guys, informative thread.
I am also failing smog due to hi NOx. I have a 97 4runner limited with the 5vzfe. The truck runs great except for a small leak in the headgasket and have had it for sometime. Passed smog last time but I guess they tightened the standards and I'm failing now.
The truck has 225k, 0 mods, original engine.
Where do you guys buy your catalytic converters online?
I am also failing smog due to hi NOx. I have a 97 4runner limited with the 5vzfe. The truck runs great except for a small leak in the headgasket and have had it for sometime. Passed smog last time but I guess they tightened the standards and I'm failing now.
The truck has 225k, 0 mods, original engine.
Where do you guys buy your catalytic converters online?
#31
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I've never had a problem passing in Cali either, and my 86 22RE was from Canada. It was old and rusty and still passed, but that was a couple years before their new law went into effect. $225 for a cat bites, glad I moved out of that Nazi State. I love buying a high flow cat for under $100 and passing smog with it.
#32
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If you're in CA you cannot, CANNOT buy a "49 state" CAT online - no one will ship those to CA. CA CATS are CARB legal and command a price premium.
You can get them online at places like rockauto.com and partstrain.com (this was the cheapest I found for 50 state legal CAT).
You can get them online at places like rockauto.com and partstrain.com (this was the cheapest I found for 50 state legal CAT).
#34
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i just passed smog on my 89 after a fresh rebuild, the nox was high and the guy at the smog place said it was more than likely the cat. I dont have to do it again for a couple years so will get a new cat later.
#35
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My decision on the whole cat premium BS is if they think I am going to pay that price then ill pay it in gas and make it a ROAD TRIP to another state for the obd1 not obd2. thats just my 0.02 cents.
#36
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The CARB cat requirements are for longevity, and probably require more platinum/rhodium/palladium, so you're probably getting a better cat. But I'm sure you're also paying for the cost of testing/certification. Anyway, you should be able to find a CARB certified Magnaflow cat for around $200.
Folks should remember that it's necessary to diagnose the problem with a failed emissions test. High HC has a very different set of causes than high nox. One is too much gas and the other is probably too little. A lot of the generic emissions advice in this thread would cause even higher nox, not lower.
With the OP, the uncovered vacuum tube fitting is probably the problem! That's a vacuum leak, which allows air to bypass the air meter, so the air meter is telling the ecu to send less gas than it should. Capping that baby should be first step. Checking for vacuum leaks very important w/high nox.
Def check EGR operation, making sure the iron egr pipe leading into the plenum is hot when motor at op temp & rpm at 2500. Also you can pull the vacuum tube to egr valve (when motor at op temp & rpm at 2500) and check for vacuum on the tube with your finger. If no vacuum, could be bad egr vsv, modulator (or maybe clogged modulator filter - try cleaning with compressed air per fsm), or maybe vacuum tubes got misrouted at some point. If there is vacuum but egr tube not hot, probably either clogged tube(s) or clogged/bad egr valve.
Mixture too lean is other most common cause of high nox. Vacuum leak already mentioned is one possible cause; clogged injectors is another. Try running a bottle of an injector cleaner with a good amount of polyether amine through the tank. Only two products still have PEA: Red Line SI-1 Complete Fuel System Cleaner has the most, CRC's "Guaranteed to Pass Emissions Test Formula" is next best. Techron, BG-12 & Gumout Regane no longer have PEA, according to their MSDSs. Send injectors to witchhunter.com if real bad.
Bad O2 sensor or bad connection to it can be cause of bad mixture, but when sensor gummed up or connection bad, usually the motor runs too rich rather than too lean. But you can check operation by counting voltage changes in the check connector when a jumper is set. Check fsm ENGINE - MFI SYSTEM - OXYGEN SENSOR section.
Timing too advanced another possible cause of high nox - check timing but also check that rpms drop when TE1 - E1 jumper is set (T - E1 on the 86). If not, very likely the IDL - E2 terminals on the tps don't have continuity when throttle closed (idle position) like they should. You have to fix that before you can correctly set timing. Also be sure idle is at 750 before setting timing.
Bad knock sensor/bad connection to it could cause ecu to run motor too advanced. But you should have the dread code 52 if that's the case (code 12 for the 86).
If you have a 22re with stock temp (190 deg F) thermostat, try replacing with a 180 deg stat - that's the t-stat for an 85-88 22RTEC, part # 90916-03083. That's also a good bet if motor pinging too much. The dealer part is far better than aftermarket, and it's as cheap or cheaper at World Toyota's online site - only $10.12 (but min shipping is $9.50 - so maybe buy some other needed parts at same time, or like ten of the slightly taller 90915-YZZD3 oil filter - 27% more filtering area than the stock 90915-YZZD1 and same price - $3.56 at World. (No affiliation with them.)
EDIT: I've read that higher octane fuel (which burns slower than low octane) burns a bit cooler, too. But I haven't found what I would consider reliable evidence of that. Just something to consider.
.
Folks should remember that it's necessary to diagnose the problem with a failed emissions test. High HC has a very different set of causes than high nox. One is too much gas and the other is probably too little. A lot of the generic emissions advice in this thread would cause even higher nox, not lower.
With the OP, the uncovered vacuum tube fitting is probably the problem! That's a vacuum leak, which allows air to bypass the air meter, so the air meter is telling the ecu to send less gas than it should. Capping that baby should be first step. Checking for vacuum leaks very important w/high nox.
Def check EGR operation, making sure the iron egr pipe leading into the plenum is hot when motor at op temp & rpm at 2500. Also you can pull the vacuum tube to egr valve (when motor at op temp & rpm at 2500) and check for vacuum on the tube with your finger. If no vacuum, could be bad egr vsv, modulator (or maybe clogged modulator filter - try cleaning with compressed air per fsm), or maybe vacuum tubes got misrouted at some point. If there is vacuum but egr tube not hot, probably either clogged tube(s) or clogged/bad egr valve.
Mixture too lean is other most common cause of high nox. Vacuum leak already mentioned is one possible cause; clogged injectors is another. Try running a bottle of an injector cleaner with a good amount of polyether amine through the tank. Only two products still have PEA: Red Line SI-1 Complete Fuel System Cleaner has the most, CRC's "Guaranteed to Pass Emissions Test Formula" is next best. Techron, BG-12 & Gumout Regane no longer have PEA, according to their MSDSs. Send injectors to witchhunter.com if real bad.
Bad O2 sensor or bad connection to it can be cause of bad mixture, but when sensor gummed up or connection bad, usually the motor runs too rich rather than too lean. But you can check operation by counting voltage changes in the check connector when a jumper is set. Check fsm ENGINE - MFI SYSTEM - OXYGEN SENSOR section.
Timing too advanced another possible cause of high nox - check timing but also check that rpms drop when TE1 - E1 jumper is set (T - E1 on the 86). If not, very likely the IDL - E2 terminals on the tps don't have continuity when throttle closed (idle position) like they should. You have to fix that before you can correctly set timing. Also be sure idle is at 750 before setting timing.
Bad knock sensor/bad connection to it could cause ecu to run motor too advanced. But you should have the dread code 52 if that's the case (code 12 for the 86).
If you have a 22re with stock temp (190 deg F) thermostat, try replacing with a 180 deg stat - that's the t-stat for an 85-88 22RTEC, part # 90916-03083. That's also a good bet if motor pinging too much. The dealer part is far better than aftermarket, and it's as cheap or cheaper at World Toyota's online site - only $10.12 (but min shipping is $9.50 - so maybe buy some other needed parts at same time, or like ten of the slightly taller 90915-YZZD3 oil filter - 27% more filtering area than the stock 90915-YZZD1 and same price - $3.56 at World. (No affiliation with them.)
EDIT: I've read that higher octane fuel (which burns slower than low octane) burns a bit cooler, too. But I haven't found what I would consider reliable evidence of that. Just something to consider.
.
Last edited by sb5walker; 04-13-2010 at 08:34 PM.
#37
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The CARB cat requirements are for longevity, and probably require more platinum/rhodium/palladium, so you're probably getting a better cat. But I'm sure you're also paying for the cost of testing/certification. Anyway, you should be able to find a CARB certified Magnaflow cat for around $200.
Folks should remember that it's necessary to diagnose the problem with a failed emissions test. High HC has a very different set of causes than high nox. One is too much gas and the other is probably too little. A lot of the generic emissions advice in this thread would cause even higher nox, not lower.
With the OP, the uncovered vacuum tube fitting is probably the problem! That's a vacuum leak, which allows air to bypass the air meter, so the air meter is telling the ecu to send less gas than it should. Capping that baby should be first step. Checking for vacuum leaks very important w/high nox.
Def check EGR operation, making sure the iron egr pipe leading into the plenum is hot when motor at op temp & rpm at 2500. Also you can pull the vacuum tube to egr valve (when motor at op temp & rpm at 2500) and check for vacuum on the tube with your finger. If no vacuum, could be bad egr vsv, modulator (or maybe clogged modulator filter - try cleaning with compressed air per fsm), or maybe vacuum tubes got misrouted at some point. If there is vacuum but egr tube not hot, probably either clogged tube(s) or clogged/bad egr valve.
Mixture too lean is other most common cause of high nox. Vacuum leak already mentioned is one possible cause; clogged injectors is another. Try running a bottle of an injector cleaner with a good amount of polyether amine through the tank. Only two products still have PEA: Red Line SI-1 Complete Fuel System Cleaner has the most, CRC's "Guaranteed to Pass Emissions Test Formula" is next best. Techron, BG-12 & Gumout Regane no longer have PEA, according to their MSDSs. Send injectors to witchhunter.com if real bad.
Bad O2 sensor or bad connection to it can be cause of bad mixture, but when sensor gummed up or connection bad, usually the motor runs too rich rather than too lean. But you can check operation by counting voltage changes in the check connector when a jumper is set. Check fsm ENGINE - MFI SYSTEM - OXYGEN SENSOR section.
Timing too advanced another possible cause of high nox - check timing but also check that rpms drop when TE - E1 jumper is set. If not, very likely the IDL - E2 terminals on the tps don't have continuity when throttle closed (idle position) like they should. You have to fix that before you can correctly set timing. Also be sure idle is at 750 before setting timing.
Bad knock sensor/bad connection to it could cause ecu to run motor too advanced. But you should have the dread code 52 if that's the case.
If you have a stock temp (190 deg F) thermostat, try replacing with many a 180 deg stat - that's the t-stat for an 85-88 22RTEC, part # 90916-03083. That's also a good bet if motor pinging too much. The dealer part is far better than aftermarket, and it's as cheap or cheaper at World Toyota's online site - only $10.12 (but min shipping is $9.50 - so maybe buy some other needed parts at same time, or like ten of the slightly taller 90915-YZZD3 oil filter - 27% more filtering area than the stock 90915-YZZD1 and same price - $3.56 at World. (No affiliation with them.)
Folks should remember that it's necessary to diagnose the problem with a failed emissions test. High HC has a very different set of causes than high nox. One is too much gas and the other is probably too little. A lot of the generic emissions advice in this thread would cause even higher nox, not lower.
With the OP, the uncovered vacuum tube fitting is probably the problem! That's a vacuum leak, which allows air to bypass the air meter, so the air meter is telling the ecu to send less gas than it should. Capping that baby should be first step. Checking for vacuum leaks very important w/high nox.
Def check EGR operation, making sure the iron egr pipe leading into the plenum is hot when motor at op temp & rpm at 2500. Also you can pull the vacuum tube to egr valve (when motor at op temp & rpm at 2500) and check for vacuum on the tube with your finger. If no vacuum, could be bad egr vsv, modulator (or maybe clogged modulator filter - try cleaning with compressed air per fsm), or maybe vacuum tubes got misrouted at some point. If there is vacuum but egr tube not hot, probably either clogged tube(s) or clogged/bad egr valve.
Mixture too lean is other most common cause of high nox. Vacuum leak already mentioned is one possible cause; clogged injectors is another. Try running a bottle of an injector cleaner with a good amount of polyether amine through the tank. Only two products still have PEA: Red Line SI-1 Complete Fuel System Cleaner has the most, CRC's "Guaranteed to Pass Emissions Test Formula" is next best. Techron, BG-12 & Gumout Regane no longer have PEA, according to their MSDSs. Send injectors to witchhunter.com if real bad.
Bad O2 sensor or bad connection to it can be cause of bad mixture, but when sensor gummed up or connection bad, usually the motor runs too rich rather than too lean. But you can check operation by counting voltage changes in the check connector when a jumper is set. Check fsm ENGINE - MFI SYSTEM - OXYGEN SENSOR section.
Timing too advanced another possible cause of high nox - check timing but also check that rpms drop when TE - E1 jumper is set. If not, very likely the IDL - E2 terminals on the tps don't have continuity when throttle closed (idle position) like they should. You have to fix that before you can correctly set timing. Also be sure idle is at 750 before setting timing.
Bad knock sensor/bad connection to it could cause ecu to run motor too advanced. But you should have the dread code 52 if that's the case.
If you have a stock temp (190 deg F) thermostat, try replacing with many a 180 deg stat - that's the t-stat for an 85-88 22RTEC, part # 90916-03083. That's also a good bet if motor pinging too much. The dealer part is far better than aftermarket, and it's as cheap or cheaper at World Toyota's online site - only $10.12 (but min shipping is $9.50 - so maybe buy some other needed parts at same time, or like ten of the slightly taller 90915-YZZD3 oil filter - 27% more filtering area than the stock 90915-YZZD1 and same price - $3.56 at World. (No affiliation with them.)
I went through this last summer when my Datsun failed 3 times. Replaced cap, rotor, plugs, wires, O2 sensor, did timing, valves, replaced injector connectors, did the complete FSM EFI ECU system test with an ohmmeter, etc)....turned out to be the CAT after all - now runs really strong (and clean!).
I love CA, but the smog rules are constricting. It used to be a sliding scale, where if your car was a certain age or older, it was exempt. Then about 10 years ago, they changed it to a hard cutoff at vehicles built before 1976. That's why all the Datsun guys love the 1975 280Z (first year of the fuel injected 2.8L I-6, and smog exempt! I have the same engine, but more smog equipment, since mine is 5 years "newer"
#38
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WOW. I just welded up a 81 cat on my 82 a friend of mine had laying around. I gave the rig a full tune up and did the timing. I took it in bright and early for the test and the mec said "you passed, that little truck is the cleanest running Toyota I have seen in months."
I almost fell over backwards.
I never thought I would get that thing smogged.
Sorry to hear about the troubles. Sounds like you have it figured out.
I almost fell over backwards.
I never thought I would get that thing smogged.
Sorry to hear about the troubles. Sounds like you have it figured out.
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