Did replacing rear ring and pinion brake the front diff?
12-11-2019, 06:41 AM
#1
Did replacing rear ring and pinion brake the front diff?
I had a shop replace the rear ring and pinion, also the left half shaft upfront they also replaced front wheel bearings an disk brakes.....when they test drive it the said they had to reverse I to get it out of 4x4 and claimed that was " normal". I said I had never needed to do that. When I tested it it feels like the front axles are not working together and get a strong pull in the steering. When I lifted the front and roll the front wheel there is a significant uneven "hard spot"...right front wheel rolled smooth and easy. Could anything they did mess up my front diff? Also when I roll the front left wheel I can see the entire front diff move up and down a whopping 4 to 5 inches. HELP! #shouldnevertakestinkytoashop
12-11-2019, 07:38 AM
#2
Registered User
If they changed the left cv, and that is now the problem area, that could be your culprit. Either that they did a wheel bearing incorrect. I would bring it back to whomever did the work.
But short answer is no, replacing the rear diff has zero effect on the front diff. Unless they put in a different gear ratio.
Also, Its hard to see what your seeing over the internet. Any chance you could post a video of when the diff is moving?
But short answer is no, replacing the rear diff has zero effect on the front diff. Unless they put in a different gear ratio.
Also, Its hard to see what your seeing over the internet. Any chance you could post a video of when the diff is moving?
12-11-2019, 07:50 AM
#3
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Just some random thoughts:
Do you have a lift on your truck? Often an aftermarket CV shaft won't have the angle range that the OEM shafts do. So, if you have a lift that is already creating high CV angles, the new (aftermarket?) CV could be binding when the front wheels are at full droop (which is the case when the front end is on jack stands or on a lift.)
It does sound possible, from your other symptoms, that they put in the wrong ratio ring and pinion. That will cause extreme binding between the front and rear axles when in 4wd.
The front diff is bolted solidly to the frame in three places with stiff rubber bushings. No way it should move 4-5 inches unless something in the mounting system is broken or detached. They may have unbolted the front diff to get the CV half shaft out and back in - it's tricky and difficult, but not impossible, to do it otherwise. Perhaps they neglected to re-install a bolt or two.
I agree with taking it back to the shop. Nothing is "normal" about your experience.
Do you have a lift on your truck? Often an aftermarket CV shaft won't have the angle range that the OEM shafts do. So, if you have a lift that is already creating high CV angles, the new (aftermarket?) CV could be binding when the front wheels are at full droop (which is the case when the front end is on jack stands or on a lift.)
It does sound possible, from your other symptoms, that they put in the wrong ratio ring and pinion. That will cause extreme binding between the front and rear axles when in 4wd.
The front diff is bolted solidly to the frame in three places with stiff rubber bushings. No way it should move 4-5 inches unless something in the mounting system is broken or detached. They may have unbolted the front diff to get the CV half shaft out and back in - it's tricky and difficult, but not impossible, to do it otherwise. Perhaps they neglected to re-install a bolt or two.
I agree with taking it back to the shop. Nothing is "normal" about your experience.
12-13-2019, 01:52 PM
#4
Just some random thoughts:
Do you have a lift on your truck? Often an aftermarket CV shaft won't have the angle range that the OEM shafts do. So, if you have a lift that is already creating high CV angles, the new (aftermarket?) CV could be binding when the front wheels are at full droop (which is the case when the front end is on jack stands or on a lift.)
It does sound possible, from your other symptoms, that they put in the wrong ratio ring and pinion. That will cause extreme binding between the front and rear axles when in 4wd.
The front diff is bolted solidly to the frame in three places with stiff rubber bushings. No way it should move 4-5 inches unless something in the mounting system is broken or detached. They may have unbolted the front diff to get the CV half shaft out and back in - it's tricky and difficult, but not impossible, to do it otherwise. Perhaps they neglected to re-install a bolt or two.
I agree with taking it back to the shop. Nothing is "normal" about your experience.
Do you have a lift on your truck? Often an aftermarket CV shaft won't have the angle range that the OEM shafts do. So, if you have a lift that is already creating high CV angles, the new (aftermarket?) CV could be binding when the front wheels are at full droop (which is the case when the front end is on jack stands or on a lift.)
It does sound possible, from your other symptoms, that they put in the wrong ratio ring and pinion. That will cause extreme binding between the front and rear axles when in 4wd.
The front diff is bolted solidly to the frame in three places with stiff rubber bushings. No way it should move 4-5 inches unless something in the mounting system is broken or detached. They may have unbolted the front diff to get the CV half shaft out and back in - it's tricky and difficult, but not impossible, to do it otherwise. Perhaps they neglected to re-install a bolt or two.
I agree with taking it back to the shop. Nothing is "normal" about your experience.
Thanks for your help! Feeling like I had a good old truck till I brought it to them.
12-13-2019, 01:59 PM
#5
Would a wheel bearing cause the 4x4 to bind?...I did think the wheel bearing job was the reason the wheel not easily rolling around. Thanks!
The front diff obviously moves...I might have exaggerated on how far. I will check mounts. Thanks!
The front diff obviously moves...I might have exaggerated on how far. I will check mounts. Thanks!
Last edited by Stinky'89; 12-13-2019 at 02:02 PM.
12-14-2019, 08:37 AM
#6
I rarely get on here and post tech anymore but for what it's worth i feel the need to help you out.
First thing first. do not take your truck back to the shop that originally worked on it. If they can't easily explain the working parts of a simple toyota pickup then there's no way in hell i'd let them touch my truck again, ever. I could care less how much it cost you because it will certainly cost you more in the long run. Under no circumstances let them open up your transfer case. They can't even figure out regular 4wd or how to find a gear ratio unless they call the dealer!?? If you're testing your 4wd out on anything but loose surface it will bind. Putting it into reverse and backing up a little to unbind it is perfectly normal. You should have a gear driven transfer case based on zero information that you've provided. Please tell us what truck you have. I'm only assuming it's a 89 toyota pickup from your name. So lets say you have a 89 toyota pickup 4wd with a manual trans and a 4 cylinder far sake of discussion.
You likely have 4.10's or close to it in your diffs. This can be verified a few ways. 1. pull your rear diff and count the teeth (the shop should have done this) 2. look at the vin tag on your door jamb and check out the gear code. 3. spin it up i the air and count the revolutions of the pinion compared to the revolutions to the wheel.
RJR is very correct an aftermarket cv axle will not have a s much travel as an oem unit. It absolutely will bind and cause issues when lifted off the ground and spinning. So many shops screw up toyota 4x4's and have no clue what to do to fix them. They very likely incorrectly installed new bearings in your front end whilst installng the brakes as very few shops even posses the 54mm socket and other tools needed to perform the job. Things like an understanding of how to remove ifs locking hubs, torquing and packing bearings properly etc etc. Rattlewagon is correct as well in stating there shouldnt be a correlation between replacing the gear set and the front diff taking a crap. Then again they want to dig into your t-case for more money so who knows what they messed up on your truck. I part out trucks like this all the time. they have had people working on them for years and the only saving grace is they are toyotas and even the crappiest tech can't kill them. I'm in the st louis area and work on toyotas daily in a gear and axle shop specializing in 4wd's. If youre close i can help you out. If you're not i'd find another shop with a reputation of working on 4wd's to take a look at the cluster "F" the previous shop has created. Good luck dude i genuinely hope you find a tech that will work on your truck. If you need a good used transfer case or a good used rear diff to fix the stuff they messed up on hit me up via pm and i'll help you out.
On a side note just for giggle what on earth did you pay these clowns to work on your truck?
First thing first. do not take your truck back to the shop that originally worked on it. If they can't easily explain the working parts of a simple toyota pickup then there's no way in hell i'd let them touch my truck again, ever. I could care less how much it cost you because it will certainly cost you more in the long run. Under no circumstances let them open up your transfer case. They can't even figure out regular 4wd or how to find a gear ratio unless they call the dealer!?? If you're testing your 4wd out on anything but loose surface it will bind. Putting it into reverse and backing up a little to unbind it is perfectly normal. You should have a gear driven transfer case based on zero information that you've provided. Please tell us what truck you have. I'm only assuming it's a 89 toyota pickup from your name. So lets say you have a 89 toyota pickup 4wd with a manual trans and a 4 cylinder far sake of discussion.
You likely have 4.10's or close to it in your diffs. This can be verified a few ways. 1. pull your rear diff and count the teeth (the shop should have done this) 2. look at the vin tag on your door jamb and check out the gear code. 3. spin it up i the air and count the revolutions of the pinion compared to the revolutions to the wheel.
RJR is very correct an aftermarket cv axle will not have a s much travel as an oem unit. It absolutely will bind and cause issues when lifted off the ground and spinning. So many shops screw up toyota 4x4's and have no clue what to do to fix them. They very likely incorrectly installed new bearings in your front end whilst installng the brakes as very few shops even posses the 54mm socket and other tools needed to perform the job. Things like an understanding of how to remove ifs locking hubs, torquing and packing bearings properly etc etc. Rattlewagon is correct as well in stating there shouldnt be a correlation between replacing the gear set and the front diff taking a crap. Then again they want to dig into your t-case for more money so who knows what they messed up on your truck. I part out trucks like this all the time. they have had people working on them for years and the only saving grace is they are toyotas and even the crappiest tech can't kill them. I'm in the st louis area and work on toyotas daily in a gear and axle shop specializing in 4wd's. If youre close i can help you out. If you're not i'd find another shop with a reputation of working on 4wd's to take a look at the cluster "F" the previous shop has created. Good luck dude i genuinely hope you find a tech that will work on your truck. If you need a good used transfer case or a good used rear diff to fix the stuff they messed up on hit me up via pm and i'll help you out.
On a side note just for giggle what on earth did you pay these clowns to work on your truck?
12-14-2019, 11:54 AM
#7
My truck is '89 extended cab SR5, 3.0 VZE, M/T with the ADD system. I payed about $600 for the brakes, wheel bearings & CV half shaft. The rear end was about $900 ouch! Any more suggestions?
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12-14-2019, 12:50 PM
#8
Not really any more suggestions. Your t-case will be chain drive sice it is a v6 truck. doesnt change the whole binding issue i described. try and test out your4wd on loose surface. There is some reasonable thought that they could have messed up your add system. your best option? go buy a service manual and start reading it sir. You own an older pickup and honestly you really need to start educating yourself about it. If you'd like to re-test that front problematic axle jack it up via the control arm and test it. By doing this you're keeping the suspension closer to ride height. be sure to chock the wheels when doing this and avoid injury. I still stand behind the fact that you need to find a good mechanic in your area that knows how to deal with 4wd's. A simple "firestone" "midas" etc will screw up a vehicle fast. Hope this helps.
12-14-2019, 08:50 PM
#9
Not really any more suggestions. Your t-case will be chain drive sice it is a v6 truck. doesnt change the whole binding issue i described. try and test out your4wd on loose surface. There is some reasonable thought that they could have messed up your add system. your best option? go buy a service manual and start reading it sir. You own an older pickup and honestly you really need to start educating yourself about it. If you'd like to re-test that front problematic axle jack it up via the control arm and test it. By doing this you're keeping the suspension closer to ride height. be sure to chock the wheels when doing this and avoid injury. I still stand behind the fact that you need to find a good mechanic in your area that knows how to deal with 4wd's. A simple "firestone" "midas" etc will screw up a vehicle fast. Hope this helps.
rode a lot
snowed alot
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mightymouse (12-15-2019)
12-15-2019, 05:31 AM
#10
I assumed "sir" sorry about that. Keep at it you will get that truck back to good operating condition. You may have a good mechanic on your hands for regular car stuff but older 4wd's do require some "extra" know how. Some techs just don't work on them enough to know what they are dealing with.
12-16-2019, 05:25 AM
#11
Ok I put it on jacks under the control arms...no binding. So what does this mean? Does this mean the new half shaft, doesn't have the right angle range? And therefore when adjusting to while running in 4x4 it binds? Or....
12-16-2019, 07:43 AM
#12
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It means that the front differential and tcase are probably OK, and that the problem (or one of the problems, anyway) is the aftermarket CV shaft. For normal on-road use (e.g., snow and ice), the CV shaft is probably adequate, but for off-road use, when you are likely to occasionally have the front wheel at full droop, the CV shaft will bind and may eventually break on the trail. It sounds like you're still able to turn the front wheel a full revolution at full droop, with some resistance. That means the CV is not completely locked up, so will most likely survive most situations. The problem will come if it is binding at the same time as it is under a lot of stress (climbing a steep hill or a rock, etc. in low range) At that point it will be vulnerable to breakage.
To determine if the gear ratios are matched front/rear, find a straight section of asphalt on a quiet street or in a parking lot, and put it in 4wd. You should be able to drive straight ahead for a hundred yards or so with no resistance, wheel hop, or other strange effects. If the front-rear gear ratios are mismatched, you won't go more than a few yards before it feels like someone has clamped down on the brakes, hard. The vehicle simply won't want to move. Don't push it any further, just back up, disengage 4wd when the tension is off, and let us know what happened.
There are still two other issues that are of concern:
- According to your initial post, the steering pulls hard. Which direction, and is that all the time, or only in 4wd?
- The differential moving is also a concern. Give us more detail on that. It shouldn't move at all, particularly not under human generated forces. The moving diff could mess up CV angles enough to cause binding.
To determine if the gear ratios are matched front/rear, find a straight section of asphalt on a quiet street or in a parking lot, and put it in 4wd. You should be able to drive straight ahead for a hundred yards or so with no resistance, wheel hop, or other strange effects. If the front-rear gear ratios are mismatched, you won't go more than a few yards before it feels like someone has clamped down on the brakes, hard. The vehicle simply won't want to move. Don't push it any further, just back up, disengage 4wd when the tension is off, and let us know what happened.
There are still two other issues that are of concern:
- According to your initial post, the steering pulls hard. Which direction, and is that all the time, or only in 4wd?
- The differential moving is also a concern. Give us more detail on that. It shouldn't move at all, particularly not under human generated forces. The moving diff could mess up CV angles enough to cause binding.
Last edited by RJR; 12-16-2019 at 07:46 AM.
12-17-2019, 04:12 AM
#13
It means that the front differential and tcase are probably OK, and that the problem (or one of the problems, anyway) is the aftermarket CV shaft. For normal on-road use (e.g., snow and ice), the CV shaft is probably adequate, but for off-road use, when you are likely to occasionally have the front wheel at full droop, the CV shaft will bind and may eventually break on the trail. It sounds like you're still able to turn the front wheel a full revolution at full droop, with some resistance. That means the CV is not completely locked up, so will most likely survive most situations. The problem will come if it is binding at the same time as it is under a lot of stress (climbing a steep hill or a rock, etc. in low range) At that point it will be vulnerable to breakage.
To determine if the gear ratios are matched front/rear, find a straight section of asphalt on a quiet street or in a parking lot, and put it in 4wd. You should be able to drive straight ahead for a hundred yards or so with no resistance, wheel hop, or other strange effects. If the front-rear gear ratios are mismatched, you won't go more than a few yards before it feels like someone has clamped down on the brakes, hard. The vehicle simply won't want to move. Don't push it any further, just back up, disengage 4wd when the tension is off, and let us know what happened.
There are still two other issues that are of concern:
- According to your initial post, the steering pulls hard. Which direction, and is that all the time, or only in 4wd?
- The differential moving is also a concern. Give us more detail on that. It shouldn't move at all, particularly not under human generated forces. The moving diff could mess up CV angles enough to cause binding.
To determine if the gear ratios are matched front/rear, find a straight section of asphalt on a quiet street or in a parking lot, and put it in 4wd. You should be able to drive straight ahead for a hundred yards or so with no resistance, wheel hop, or other strange effects. If the front-rear gear ratios are mismatched, you won't go more than a few yards before it feels like someone has clamped down on the brakes, hard. The vehicle simply won't want to move. Don't push it any further, just back up, disengage 4wd when the tension is off, and let us know what happened.
There are still two other issues that are of concern:
- According to your initial post, the steering pulls hard. Which direction, and is that all the time, or only in 4wd?
- The differential moving is also a concern. Give us more detail on that. It shouldn't move at all, particularly not under human generated forces. The moving diff could mess up CV angles enough to cause binding.
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Stinky'89 (12-26-2019)
12-26-2019, 08:44 AM
#14
Wow RJR thanks for the explanation. I really appreciate some back up to what I already am thinking. That is if there is something wrong look to what has just been done.
I found that the front diff was not fully secured and that solved the movement issue. It was the mount close to the transfer case and front driveline....
The steering was pulling hard only in 4x4....I'm thinking to the left, but memory not clear.. After tightening mount bolts have not noticed same issue.
It does have wheel hop on dry roads when in 4x4. I have to commute to work in 4x4 on roads currently snow packed... if the gear ratio is not exact, what damage am I doing? I have an appointment with a 4x4 shop to change the oil pan gasket and take a look at the work the other guys F'd up but it is not until Jan 9.
Thanks again and Happy Holidays hope you are enjoying the snow as much as I am....I'm lucky I don't have to drive to take a ski!HaHa
I found that the front diff was not fully secured and that solved the movement issue. It was the mount close to the transfer case and front driveline....
The steering was pulling hard only in 4x4....I'm thinking to the left, but memory not clear.. After tightening mount bolts have not noticed same issue.
It does have wheel hop on dry roads when in 4x4. I have to commute to work in 4x4 on roads currently snow packed... if the gear ratio is not exact, what damage am I doing? I have an appointment with a 4x4 shop to change the oil pan gasket and take a look at the work the other guys F'd up but it is not until Jan 9.
Thanks again and Happy Holidays hope you are enjoying the snow as much as I am....I'm lucky I don't have to drive to take a ski!HaHa
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