Coolant boiling in reservoir, and no hot air in cabin
09-04-2013 | 07:48 PM
#21
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,776
Likes: 110
From: Northern Colorado
Quote:
Originally Posted by snobdds
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
The cooling system is a closed system, outside pressure has no effect on it. If what your saying is correct, then the radiator cap would need to be variable insted of fixed...
Quote:
Originally Posted by snobdds View Post
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
The cooling system is a closed system, outside pressure has no effect on it. If what your saying is correct, then the radiator cap would need to be variable insted of fixed...
x3 lmao
Well, while it's not a likely cause of the problem, it's not all that stupid a theory, from the physics standpoint. The absolute pressure in the radiator, which is what controls the boiling point, is the sum of the outside air pressure plus the pressure regulated by the pressure cap. So, at sea level (air pressure = 15 psi) with a 14 lb cap, the absolute pressure is about 29 psi. At 6700 feet, where the air pressure is about 11.5 psi, the absolute pressure in the radiator is 25.5 psi. That's enough to reduce the boiling point from about 250 degF to 241 degF. Not much, but it is different, and less.
Originally Posted by snobdds
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
The cooling system is a closed system, outside pressure has no effect on it. If what your saying is correct, then the radiator cap would need to be variable insted of fixed...
Quote:
Originally Posted by snobdds View Post
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
The cooling system is a closed system, outside pressure has no effect on it. If what your saying is correct, then the radiator cap would need to be variable insted of fixed...
x3 lmao
Well, while it's not a likely cause of the problem, it's not all that stupid a theory, from the physics standpoint. The absolute pressure in the radiator, which is what controls the boiling point, is the sum of the outside air pressure plus the pressure regulated by the pressure cap. So, at sea level (air pressure = 15 psi) with a 14 lb cap, the absolute pressure is about 29 psi. At 6700 feet, where the air pressure is about 11.5 psi, the absolute pressure in the radiator is 25.5 psi. That's enough to reduce the boiling point from about 250 degF to 241 degF. Not much, but it is different, and less.
Last edited by RJR; 09-04-2013 at 07:50 PM.
09-19-2013 | 02:56 PM
#23
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 7,094
Likes: 671
Coolant Bubbling, Overflowing Before Operating temp
My 1986 22R-E DLX 4Runner had been overheating recently. Coolant coming out of radiator and filling reserve tank. Mech thought it was actual boiling from blockage as mentioned in above posts, so shop cleaned blockage under throttle body. However, last nigh it overheated again after driving a couple of miles.
To confirm actual boiling and to burp as well, this morning I re-filled radiator and started it with radiator cap off. Immediately (cold engine), coolant started overflowing slowly but steadily, then some bubbles occasionally showed up.
It could not be boiling over because engine was still cold, correct?
IF bubble was from air in system, would you expect it to show with engine cold and just started? Thermostat is new.
Any other possible cause of coolant overflowing with engine cold?
Looks like bad news? Head gasket?
TIA, guys!
09-21-2013 | 08:40 PM
#24
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 7,094
Likes: 671
Reply To Terry's post on my Thread...
Thanks a lot, Terry. Shop confirmed its bad HG.
Engine's also started to run rougher than usual, and starting seems harder. It used to go, "Ta-da! Vroom!" I also observed this with our Civic that blew the HG.
Not sure of state of water pump but coolant overflowing, and recently bubbling, upon start while still cold seems to be more than bad water pump can cause.
Looks like what it's doing. No coolant in oil. No Milkshake, either. When it bubbles I see faint black stuff that look like tiny dementors 
. Could be burnt carbon from exhaust.
Yes, moisture out the tailpipe seems more than usual.
Thanks also for the input on rebuilt vendor.
So my options now are:
My decision would depend on difference of cost for each option. Also leaning toward replacement with guaranteed rebuilt engine because I want to keep the truck; not for sentimental or economic reasons, but because I prefer simple but/and robust things like the 22R-E, that I can customize to my own preferences. Plus:
Guys,
If you know a local mech who can do guaranteed rebuild in San Diego, please let me know.
Engine's also started to run rougher than usual, and starting seems harder. It used to go, "Ta-da! Vroom!" I also observed this with our Civic that blew the HG.
It is sounding like instead of the exhaust/air going out the pipe, it is getting past the gasket and getting into the cooling system and eventually to the radiator. I would run a compression test. I have never had oil in the water, it is possible for oil to get into the water, but a headgasket can happen without oil in the water.
. Could be burnt carbon from exhaust.
Another sign of a headgasket is coolant going out the tail pipe. Do you get a splash out of the exhaust pipe. It is normal for some steam when first starting up in humid areas, you are dry climate for the most part so too much water or steam would grab my attention in your area.
Next what I would do is to pull the valve cover and retorque my head bolts and run it again. If you find any loose head bolts, you are still going to have to replace the head gasket, but you will know what cylinder it is in. I have had loose head bolts to cause a blown gasket. Also it will slow down the air leak and help confirm the head gasket.
Because of the loose bolt I have dealt with. I have come across a few other trucks that when doing a tune up, when I adjust the valves, I automatically retorque the head bolts as a preventive measure. A new to me truck or someone elses, I have found one that was a little loose but not loose enough to blow the headgasket on several trucks. Was probably a matter of time.
Do your compression test. The rest is worse case scenarios, but I think will be cheaper and quicker to getting your truck on the road. If it turns out to be a head gasket, you should send your head to the shop. A new head can be had for about $250. If a little machine work is needed, I will have the head fixed, but if cost gets over around $170, I buy a new head.
From now on and what I have done in the past is just replace head and gasket. I just got done rebuilding a motor for my 85 and I used Enginebuilder. No complaints with Engine builder at all great service. Some will say if you are going to replace the headgasket you may as well do a rebuild. What they dont say is you need to add about $300 for parts and $300 or more for machine work.
I have bought 2 motors and my brother has bought one from http://unitedengine.com/ Check their specials at the top of the page also, they have it a little cheaper and they are in your area and that will save you on shipping. All three of these motors and another one I referred someone to have all been great motors. They dont always require a core, that can be hit or miss on that.
I thought I could rebuild one cheaper then buying one and I was wrong, I should of just bought one from them. This is worse case scenario, but I would just do the head gasket if it was me and that is what it is sounding like. Compression test doesn't take long.
Because of the loose bolt I have dealt with. I have come across a few other trucks that when doing a tune up, when I adjust the valves, I automatically retorque the head bolts as a preventive measure. A new to me truck or someone elses, I have found one that was a little loose but not loose enough to blow the headgasket on several trucks. Was probably a matter of time.
Do your compression test. The rest is worse case scenarios, but I think will be cheaper and quicker to getting your truck on the road. If it turns out to be a head gasket, you should send your head to the shop. A new head can be had for about $250. If a little machine work is needed, I will have the head fixed, but if cost gets over around $170, I buy a new head.
From now on and what I have done in the past is just replace head and gasket. I just got done rebuilding a motor for my 85 and I used Enginebuilder. No complaints with Engine builder at all great service. Some will say if you are going to replace the headgasket you may as well do a rebuild. What they dont say is you need to add about $300 for parts and $300 or more for machine work.
I have bought 2 motors and my brother has bought one from http://unitedengine.com/ Check their specials at the top of the page also, they have it a little cheaper and they are in your area and that will save you on shipping. All three of these motors and another one I referred someone to have all been great motors. They dont always require a core, that can be hit or miss on that.
I thought I could rebuild one cheaper then buying one and I was wrong, I should of just bought one from them. This is worse case scenario, but I would just do the head gasket if it was me and that is what it is sounding like. Compression test doesn't take long.
So my options now are:
- Just do HG job (possible machining of head),
- Have engine rebuilt locally, if I can find a local mech to do it,
- Purchase rebuilt engine and have shop Remove & Replace.
My decision would depend on difference of cost for each option. Also leaning toward replacement with guaranteed rebuilt engine because I want to keep the truck; not for sentimental or economic reasons, but because I prefer simple but/and robust things like the 22R-E, that I can customize to my own preferences. Plus:
- Main bearing and oil pan are already leaking.
- If I do replace the engine, I'll have access to fire wall for more sound and heat proofing, and I can get my engine compartment as clean as Mark's - LOL!
Guys,
If you know a local mech who can do guaranteed rebuild in San Diego, please let me know.
09-22-2013 | 11:12 AM
#25
Registered User
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,159
Likes: 7
From: Pleasanton, CA - SF Bay Area
Hii Ray - sorry you're going through this. So, sounds like exhaust is leaking through HG, and into the water jacket? And a leaking oil pan? I don't know what you mean by main bearing leaking - do you mean front main seal (in the oil pump at the crank snout)? If so, that one's easy and quick and cheap to fix.
Sounds like you want to keep with 22RE due to simplicity, so no swap/upgrade for you....But you don't have room/time/tools to do the job at your place, so you'll be hiring a shop locally to do whatever you decide on?
If so, I'd go with ENGNBLDR fresh parts (timing cover, gasket set, oil and water pump), but I prefer OEM HG just because. I got new head bolts from ENGNBLDR when I did mine too. I also bought a new head since I thought mine was warped and the cost to recondition it and the valves was only $100 -$200 less than a new head - VERY happy with the new head/cam setup - definitely more power. I also got the injectors cleaned while in there, and replaced all hoses/gaskets. Very happy with this.
If you want to talk more about it and options, send me a PM and we can chat - or if you're in the area, maybe we can grab a beer at Mission
Phil
Sounds like you want to keep with 22RE due to simplicity, so no swap/upgrade for you....But you don't have room/time/tools to do the job at your place, so you'll be hiring a shop locally to do whatever you decide on?
If so, I'd go with ENGNBLDR fresh parts (timing cover, gasket set, oil and water pump), but I prefer OEM HG just because. I got new head bolts from ENGNBLDR when I did mine too. I also bought a new head since I thought mine was warped and the cost to recondition it and the valves was only $100 -$200 less than a new head - VERY happy with the new head/cam setup - definitely more power. I also got the injectors cleaned while in there, and replaced all hoses/gaskets. Very happy with this.
If you want to talk more about it and options, send me a PM and we can chat - or if you're in the area, maybe we can grab a beer at Mission
Phil
09-26-2013 | 12:58 PM
#26
Wish you were closer buddy! I have a voice in standard everything you need... You can do it all I'll just take video! Lol... Just kidding.
Very easy to start shifting all over the place when it comes to a decision like this. The bottom line is you cannot know everything about the internals of that motor until it's torn down. The easiest solution to that is to not tear it down at all, just pull it right out and slap in hey donor or reman or whatever you choose. I agree with Phil in regards to if you're going to go with a short block, or just rebuild your bottom end..... , then slap one of the engine builders heads on there. Many times, if you're going to go with a complete short block, it will come with the new water pump and oil pump kit and so forth... Then you could just slap on the new engine builder head and be done with it.
Either way you go, you're going to need to definitely send off your injectors and cold start injector to be fully serviced. By the way, now is the time to decide whether or not you're going to upgrade to those different types of injectors. Seems to be pretty popular as of late..... Definitely have it good to go - clean at that throttle body, plenum and intake and all related ports while you are at it.
As for the choice of what to do, it's totally up to you... But it sounds like you have some blockage is going on for sure, regardless of whether you have a head gasket issue or not. When my truck did the boiling over, it was usually warm, but it started with the water pump which was weeping from the Weep hole . I replaced the water pump and within 24 hours is it pretty much blew up my radiator, because it couldn't handle the flow. I replace that and even before my first rebuild it ran cool all the time. If you're going to do your own blocking have it rebuilt, you need to make sure that you use a place that is going to hot tank it well, clean all the ports out thoroughly, surface it well, then put nothing but at least decent internal combustion and mechanical parts. Really ask companies like United engines, what type of main and rod bearings do you use? Do you resurface all of the rod and main bearing journals? Can I know the final numbers of the crank specs, or in other words how much it was resurfaced?(10/10 or just a polish is ideal.... 30/30 is the max it can go on resurfacing, so in other words, if they do a crank 20 / 30, it can never be resurfaced again pastor that on the main bearings... They could only resurface it from 20 to 30 on the rod bearings.
This brings us to the questions like, "why I would I go with 22reperformance.com when I could just go down the street to Billy Joe or USA whatever for $900?" ..... even looking on the website, you can see that the Putney brothers used only only amore what they feel are better quality parts...... Everything I put in there and the message that they do it is made to last. I am not trying to say anything bad about United engines or otherwise. I can only go by experience, and while I had a great experience with Japanese auto center and their machinist, Phil... I can no longer recommend him after speaking with Grego...
...... This is why I did much of the machining and everything else on my own, I just got tired of not knowing how it's done and then on top of that, I didn't want to get screwed over again!
Personally, I think if you are not going to trust a place to put a lot of attention to the detail in every motor they do... I would take my block apart and faggan label everything and then take it down to someone who is most recommended in your area to have it machine, order the kit from whom ever you decide, make sure the machinist tells you every step of the way on the crank spec numbers, choose your bearings and rings as carefully as the Putney brothers do, and then have the parts shipped to the machinist or to you where you can bring them to him so he can slap it all together. You could also order that head and have that delivered to the machinist so that he could assemble the whole thing, then just make sure that he laps your rockers by hand, etc.
The bonus about having a motor ready to go to trade for yours is that you simply pull out the other one and drop the other one and, go about your business and if anything goes wrong its usually under warranty. Mosted Machinist full warranty all their work as well, but you really have to decide which way do you want to go, the most attention to detail as possible with you having a hand in it? Or, trust the professional purveyors how to handle the whole thing, then ship off your motor and wait for the new one.
By the way, this is the perfect time to do your suspension, when the motor is out of there. You can stand in there literally and do the desktop and spacers and have a much easier time getting everything done.
If I was going to order a motor, I have to be totally honest and say I would go with the Putney route. I have never, aside from Ted and Todd from engine builders, dealt with a more professional and friendly and helpful dude has Jim Putney. The next on the list would probably be LC engineering, although I have heard plenty of horror stories and the price isn't exactly cheap... Obviously any other route that I took in regards to having it rebuilt would be much more hands on, but I understand you can't do that at this moment... Let me know if there's anything I can do to help, but make sure if you get started but you don't cut any corners and make sure you clean everything thoroughly. I've posted hundreds of shortcuts things you can do to make this easier, especially pulling everything out before you pull the motor... I can do it all now without labeling anything, just because I've been through so many times... So I wish I could be there just help you get it out and put the new one in. If you are going to go to a place that's going to spoil it for you and put in the new one, ask them if you can come down and clean up all of the contact of the connectors and so forth, little things like that.
PS> Please don't hesitate to give me a call or send me a message with any questions you have. I'm sorry it took me so long, I've been dealing with a lot of crap lately, or just been plain busy.
Very easy to start shifting all over the place when it comes to a decision like this. The bottom line is you cannot know everything about the internals of that motor until it's torn down. The easiest solution to that is to not tear it down at all, just pull it right out and slap in hey donor or reman or whatever you choose. I agree with Phil in regards to if you're going to go with a short block, or just rebuild your bottom end..... , then slap one of the engine builders heads on there. Many times, if you're going to go with a complete short block, it will come with the new water pump and oil pump kit and so forth... Then you could just slap on the new engine builder head and be done with it.
Either way you go, you're going to need to definitely send off your injectors and cold start injector to be fully serviced. By the way, now is the time to decide whether or not you're going to upgrade to those different types of injectors. Seems to be pretty popular as of late..... Definitely have it good to go - clean at that throttle body, plenum and intake and all related ports while you are at it.
As for the choice of what to do, it's totally up to you... But it sounds like you have some blockage is going on for sure, regardless of whether you have a head gasket issue or not. When my truck did the boiling over, it was usually warm, but it started with the water pump which was weeping from the Weep hole . I replaced the water pump and within 24 hours is it pretty much blew up my radiator, because it couldn't handle the flow. I replace that and even before my first rebuild it ran cool all the time. If you're going to do your own blocking have it rebuilt, you need to make sure that you use a place that is going to hot tank it well, clean all the ports out thoroughly, surface it well, then put nothing but at least decent internal combustion and mechanical parts. Really ask companies like United engines, what type of main and rod bearings do you use? Do you resurface all of the rod and main bearing journals? Can I know the final numbers of the crank specs, or in other words how much it was resurfaced?(10/10 or just a polish is ideal.... 30/30 is the max it can go on resurfacing, so in other words, if they do a crank 20 / 30, it can never be resurfaced again pastor that on the main bearings... They could only resurface it from 20 to 30 on the rod bearings.
This brings us to the questions like, "why I would I go with 22reperformance.com when I could just go down the street to Billy Joe or USA whatever for $900?" ..... even looking on the website, you can see that the Putney brothers used only only amore what they feel are better quality parts...... Everything I put in there and the message that they do it is made to last. I am not trying to say anything bad about United engines or otherwise. I can only go by experience, and while I had a great experience with Japanese auto center and their machinist, Phil... I can no longer recommend him after speaking with Grego...
...... This is why I did much of the machining and everything else on my own, I just got tired of not knowing how it's done and then on top of that, I didn't want to get screwed over again! Personally, I think if you are not going to trust a place to put a lot of attention to the detail in every motor they do... I would take my block apart and faggan label everything and then take it down to someone who is most recommended in your area to have it machine, order the kit from whom ever you decide, make sure the machinist tells you every step of the way on the crank spec numbers, choose your bearings and rings as carefully as the Putney brothers do, and then have the parts shipped to the machinist or to you where you can bring them to him so he can slap it all together. You could also order that head and have that delivered to the machinist so that he could assemble the whole thing, then just make sure that he laps your rockers by hand, etc.
The bonus about having a motor ready to go to trade for yours is that you simply pull out the other one and drop the other one and, go about your business and if anything goes wrong its usually under warranty. Mosted Machinist full warranty all their work as well, but you really have to decide which way do you want to go, the most attention to detail as possible with you having a hand in it? Or, trust the professional purveyors how to handle the whole thing, then ship off your motor and wait for the new one.
By the way, this is the perfect time to do your suspension, when the motor is out of there. You can stand in there literally and do the desktop and spacers and have a much easier time getting everything done.
If I was going to order a motor, I have to be totally honest and say I would go with the Putney route. I have never, aside from Ted and Todd from engine builders, dealt with a more professional and friendly and helpful dude has Jim Putney. The next on the list would probably be LC engineering, although I have heard plenty of horror stories and the price isn't exactly cheap... Obviously any other route that I took in regards to having it rebuilt would be much more hands on, but I understand you can't do that at this moment... Let me know if there's anything I can do to help, but make sure if you get started but you don't cut any corners and make sure you clean everything thoroughly. I've posted hundreds of shortcuts things you can do to make this easier, especially pulling everything out before you pull the motor... I can do it all now without labeling anything, just because I've been through so many times... So I wish I could be there just help you get it out and put the new one in. If you are going to go to a place that's going to spoil it for you and put in the new one, ask them if you can come down and clean up all of the contact of the connectors and so forth, little things like that.
PS> Please don't hesitate to give me a call or send me a message with any questions you have. I'm sorry it took me so long, I've been dealing with a lot of crap lately, or just been plain busy.
Last edited by ChefYota4x4; 09-26-2013 at 02:47 PM.
09-26-2013 | 02:51 PM
#27
PSS: if you just have the front main seal leak on a head gasket issue, but your motor was pretty strong up to that point, I think you could easily get by when ordering ahead from engine builder, along with the water pump, pull your radiator and have it re-rodded or at least serviced and pressure tested, slap on a new head gasket, button up that new head and call it Susie. I have to say, over this time of being in this Toyota world, I've learned that you should get the most out of these motors that you can. I blew a head gasket and wound up with 375,000 miles on the bottom end of another motor. Granted, its not going to have any where near the power that's a stage 2 Putney motor has, but if you're getting around fun with all your gear and never complaining about Hills or anything like that... You might be fine we're just putting in the head and cleaning up the cooling system ports & circulation portion. Even if you only get around 50,000 more out of the block, the head would still be perfectly fine to go for another hundred thousand after you rebuild the short block. Just remember, putting a high output head on an old tired motor can sometimes lead to other problems... But I definitely enjoyed the cam upgrade from them/engnbldr!
Last edited by ChefYota4x4; 09-26-2013 at 02:55 PM.
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