Brake Upgrade, need opinions
09-14-2006, 09:00 AM
#21
Registered User
Everything else being the same, drilled rotors provide LESS stopping power than solid/vented rotors.
Braking depends on the conversion of energy to heat.
The heat is produced by the friction of the pads against the rotors.
The more friction, the faster the stop.
Drilled rotors provide less surface area (as much as 20% or so, depending on brand) which translates to less friction and less stopping power.
The mass of the metal (rotors) acts as a heat sink and it's an important part of braking, the ability to absorb heat and then dissipate the heat.
Drilled rotors have less mass than solid, vented rotors.
Simply not true these days.
Years ago, yes, but the modern rubber brake hoses do not expand at all under any pressure that one is likely to run through then in a braking system.
Fred
Braking depends on the conversion of energy to heat.
The heat is produced by the friction of the pads against the rotors.
The more friction, the faster the stop.
Drilled rotors provide less surface area (as much as 20% or so, depending on brand) which translates to less friction and less stopping power.
The mass of the metal (rotors) acts as a heat sink and it's an important part of braking, the ability to absorb heat and then dissipate the heat.
Drilled rotors have less mass than solid, vented rotors.
Simply not true these days.
Years ago, yes, but the modern rubber brake hoses do not expand at all under any pressure that one is likely to run through then in a braking system.
Fred
They have less surface area. True.
They also let the gasses of heat exchance dissipate more effectively rather than glazing and floating on the rotor.
"The State vs. BS" Colorado Municipal Court, August 2005.
You kill me Adrian. 
09-14-2006, 09:06 AM
#23
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Couldn't have said it better. Without any scientific explanation this is what I know: They work better than my stock ones! lol!
09-14-2006, 12:47 PM
#24
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its called degassing. yea they work(slotted/drilled), these arguments seem to pop up every now and then. i prefer slotted myself. also, there is some(minor, but still there)expansion with modern rubber brake lines. for a rig, probably don't need stainless lines, certainly wouldn't hurt though, and might make the brakes feel a little "tighter". for a performance car, oh yea they definitely help.
09-14-2006, 01:58 PM
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This turned out to be a LOOONG Post, just a warning
Braking does in fact depend upon the conversion of energy to heat, but since the metal of a brake rotor can only contain so much heat before it can no longer absorb heat, you reach a point called brake fade, which is a fact, brakes build up more heat than they can dissipate and fail. Enter Slotted/Drilled Rotors.
Like this:
So true, slotted and drilled rotors help to dissipate heat, therefore helping the rotors to be able to absord MORE heat. If the rotor can dissipate heat faster, it can absord heat faster, therefore, convert energy to heat faster, therefore effectively stopping...you guessed it...faster.
True, on our trucks, slotted/drilled rotors and SS brake lines may not be neccesary...but I have built more than one sub 12 second 1/4 mile race cars, and I can tell you, they work. On a tight little sports car, you want all the brakes you can get, and SS lines, and drilled rotors are the way to go.
Amen. We can argue science and thoery all day, but that right there..living actual proof, can't argue that. Done deal.
Everything else being the same, drilled rotors provide LESS stopping power than solid/vented rotors.
Braking depends on the conversion of energy to heat.
The heat is produced by the friction of the pads against the rotors.
The more friction, the faster the stop.
Drilled rotors provide less surface area (as much as 20% or so, depending on brand) which translates to less friction and less stopping power.
The mass of the metal (rotors) acts as a heat sink and it's an important part of braking, the ability to absorb heat and then dissipate the heat.
Drilled rotors have less mass than solid, vented rotors.
Braking depends on the conversion of energy to heat.
The heat is produced by the friction of the pads against the rotors.
The more friction, the faster the stop.
Drilled rotors provide less surface area (as much as 20% or so, depending on brand) which translates to less friction and less stopping power.
The mass of the metal (rotors) acts as a heat sink and it's an important part of braking, the ability to absorb heat and then dissipate the heat.
Drilled rotors have less mass than solid, vented rotors.
Like this:
its called degassing. yea they work(slotted/drilled), these arguments seem to pop up every now and then. i prefer slotted myself. also, there is some(minor, but still there)expansion with modern rubber brake lines. for a rig, probably don't need stainless lines, certainly wouldn't hurt though, and might make the brakes feel a little "tighter". for a performance car, oh yea they definitely help.
Amen. We can argue science and thoery all day, but that right there..living actual proof, can't argue that. Done deal.
Last edited by 04 Rocko Taco; 09-14-2006 at 02:06 PM.
09-14-2006, 05:44 PM
#26
Thanks all
OK, so i think I will once be swayed towards Drilled/slotted rotors. No, im not building a racer, but hey my brakes can use all they help they can get lol.
Thanks all for the info. Keep it coming!!
Im likely selling my Corolla tomorrow, so the brake upgrade may come sooner than I hoped!
Thanks all for the info. Keep it coming!!
Im likely selling my Corolla tomorrow, so the brake upgrade may come sooner than I hoped!
09-14-2006, 06:23 PM
#27
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Call me stupid, but I'm completely lost on this entire discussion. I have *NEVER* seen any indication that the 95 4Runner has different size rotors than previous?????
I checked NAPA's site and they do have different part numbers even between 94 and 95, but I have no idea why... What differences are there that you are aware of?
I checked NAPA's site and they do have different part numbers even between 94 and 95, but I have no idea why... What differences are there that you are aware of?
09-14-2006, 08:03 PM
#28
Registered User
Ok, let's talk brakes and how, why they work.
- Cross drilled rotors we NOT, and are not used to dissipate heat faster.
They were used to help remove gases that formed from the heat that was created, mostly from the pads.
Modern day brake materials produce almost no outgassing at all (at the ranges that we use them) and certainly NOT at any application that they'll ever see in our vehicles here. Modern day pads have to get up around 1,000 degrees, maybe more before they will outgas anything.
Cross drilled rotors today in street and offroad vehicles are for the "bling bling" effect.
- Understanding how a rotor works (along with calipers and pads) is the key.
The stopping power of the caliper clamps the pads to the rotor, creating friction. The friction converts kinetic energy into heat energy. It's up to the rotor to dissipate the heat enery into the atmosphere and away from the brake fluid, seals, etc. A larger diameter, thicker rotor with more vanes dissipates heat quicker than a smaller, lighter rotor with less mass.
*Maximizing* rotor surface area is the key to heat dissipation.
When a rotor has more mass it absorbs and dissipates more heat. More mass is created by a larger diameter and/or greater thickness and/or more vane area.
The primary design parameter for any disk brake system is the ability of the rotors to dissipate heat.
Brake rotors store, then dissipate heat. The greater the metal mass of the rotor, the greater its storage capacity.
Of the two commonly used rotor materials, cast iron is the best from a strictly braking stand point. Cast iron has a good coeficient of friction, and the rotor can maintain good shape and structure up to 1,000 degress operating temperature. It also absorbs heat energy very efficiently.
Steel is lighter in weight than cast iron, but its ability to absorb heat energy and it's coefficient of friction is about half that of cast itron. Unlike cast iron, steel does not stay as stable under high operating temperatures. Under high heat cycling, a steel rotor can warp and dish.
Cross drilled rotors of the same size and material type as a solid, vented rotor has both less surface area and less mass and simply will not work as well, everything else being the same.
It can't.
I work with Sprint cars and was going to start racing them, though that's been put on hold for probably another year or so.
Sprints (dirt track) use (usually) two brakes, a left front brake with the primary purpose is to help turn the car, not stop it, and an inboard rear brake that has the job of stopping the car.
This brake has to haul the car down (depending on the track length, etc) from 150 mph (or faster) to 60 ~ 80 mph in yards. That brake really has a job to do.
It will see temperatures, often, in excess of 1,000 degrees. At these high temperatures, even modern day racing pads will outgas.
So, let's see what's used on Sprint cars for the rear inboard brake rotor.
Want to guess
Most use a 12.19 inch diameter vented cast iron rotor (not crossed drilled) for maximum heat absorption and dissipation.
But what about the outgasssing we ask ??
Most Sprints use a Wilwood Billet Superlite caliper. It's uses differential bore sizes (1.88/1.62), and is a rigid four piston design.
Why use a diffenrentiral bore design? Because calipers with equal sized pistons normally create a tapered wear pattern of the brake pads, which means that the full surface area of the pad is not being applied against the rotor.
What causes pad taper is the byproduct of extremely high operating temperatures. As operating temperatures raise above 1,000 degrees the pad material starts to release a gas (not that the operating ranges that Toyotas, etc., see is never anywhere close to this, and, as such, they simply don't outgass). These gasses build up and for a barrier between the pad and the rotor. The gases travel to the rear of the pad, and thus the front of the pad is subjected to more clamping force and it wears at a greater rate. To combat this, larger piston sizes are used at the rear of edge of the pad for better clamping force.
The brakes on Sprint cars do operate in the range where the pads outgass. Do they use cross drilled rotors ? No. Why ? Because it would decrease the braking force. Instead they use different sized pistons in the brake caliper.
Here's a photo that I took of the inboard rear brake area of a Sprint car just as it pulled off the track. This is at night and it's not color corrected. Yes, you're seeing the color correctly. The rotor is WHITE hot , way passed red
Anyway, we really haven't gotten off topic here, as we are talking about disk brake rotors.
This is long, but it's in the interest of not disseminating wrong information.
Cross drilled rotors, especially in our applications (Toyotas), everything else being the same, simply will *not* increase braking ability, but, to the contrary, will decrease it.
The physics of brakes is the same.
If you have a choice:
- Get cast iron over steel
- Get a rotor with the most number of vanes between the two halves
- Don't get cross drilled
- Get the "biggest" one that'll work.
Fred
- Cross drilled rotors we NOT, and are not used to dissipate heat faster.
They were used to help remove gases that formed from the heat that was created, mostly from the pads.
Modern day brake materials produce almost no outgassing at all (at the ranges that we use them) and certainly NOT at any application that they'll ever see in our vehicles here. Modern day pads have to get up around 1,000 degrees, maybe more before they will outgas anything.
Cross drilled rotors today in street and offroad vehicles are for the "bling bling" effect.
- Understanding how a rotor works (along with calipers and pads) is the key.
The stopping power of the caliper clamps the pads to the rotor, creating friction. The friction converts kinetic energy into heat energy. It's up to the rotor to dissipate the heat enery into the atmosphere and away from the brake fluid, seals, etc. A larger diameter, thicker rotor with more vanes dissipates heat quicker than a smaller, lighter rotor with less mass.
*Maximizing* rotor surface area is the key to heat dissipation.
When a rotor has more mass it absorbs and dissipates more heat. More mass is created by a larger diameter and/or greater thickness and/or more vane area.
The primary design parameter for any disk brake system is the ability of the rotors to dissipate heat.
Brake rotors store, then dissipate heat. The greater the metal mass of the rotor, the greater its storage capacity.
Of the two commonly used rotor materials, cast iron is the best from a strictly braking stand point. Cast iron has a good coeficient of friction, and the rotor can maintain good shape and structure up to 1,000 degress operating temperature. It also absorbs heat energy very efficiently.
Steel is lighter in weight than cast iron, but its ability to absorb heat energy and it's coefficient of friction is about half that of cast itron. Unlike cast iron, steel does not stay as stable under high operating temperatures. Under high heat cycling, a steel rotor can warp and dish.
Cross drilled rotors of the same size and material type as a solid, vented rotor has both less surface area and less mass and simply will not work as well, everything else being the same.
It can't.
I work with Sprint cars and was going to start racing them, though that's been put on hold for probably another year or so.
Sprints (dirt track) use (usually) two brakes, a left front brake with the primary purpose is to help turn the car, not stop it, and an inboard rear brake that has the job of stopping the car.
This brake has to haul the car down (depending on the track length, etc) from 150 mph (or faster) to 60 ~ 80 mph in yards. That brake really has a job to do.
It will see temperatures, often, in excess of 1,000 degrees. At these high temperatures, even modern day racing pads will outgas.
So, let's see what's used on Sprint cars for the rear inboard brake rotor.
Want to guess
Most use a 12.19 inch diameter vented cast iron rotor (not crossed drilled) for maximum heat absorption and dissipation.
But what about the outgasssing we ask ??
Most Sprints use a Wilwood Billet Superlite caliper. It's uses differential bore sizes (1.88/1.62), and is a rigid four piston design.
Why use a diffenrentiral bore design? Because calipers with equal sized pistons normally create a tapered wear pattern of the brake pads, which means that the full surface area of the pad is not being applied against the rotor.
What causes pad taper is the byproduct of extremely high operating temperatures. As operating temperatures raise above 1,000 degrees the pad material starts to release a gas (not that the operating ranges that Toyotas, etc., see is never anywhere close to this, and, as such, they simply don't outgass). These gasses build up and for a barrier between the pad and the rotor. The gases travel to the rear of the pad, and thus the front of the pad is subjected to more clamping force and it wears at a greater rate. To combat this, larger piston sizes are used at the rear of edge of the pad for better clamping force.
The brakes on Sprint cars do operate in the range where the pads outgass. Do they use cross drilled rotors ? No. Why ? Because it would decrease the braking force. Instead they use different sized pistons in the brake caliper.
Here's a photo that I took of the inboard rear brake area of a Sprint car just as it pulled off the track. This is at night and it's not color corrected. Yes, you're seeing the color correctly. The rotor is WHITE hot , way passed red
Anyway, we really haven't gotten off topic here, as we are talking about disk brake rotors.
This is long, but it's in the interest of not disseminating wrong information.
Cross drilled rotors, especially in our applications (Toyotas), everything else being the same, simply will *not* increase braking ability, but, to the contrary, will decrease it.
The physics of brakes is the same.
If you have a choice:
- Get cast iron over steel
- Get a rotor with the most number of vanes between the two halves
- Don't get cross drilled
- Get the "biggest" one that'll work.
Fred
09-14-2006, 08:26 PM
#29
Registered User
No.
"People vs. Crap" Wisconsin State Courts 1999.
What you are saying is wrong. Purely and simply wrong.
Every solid axle Toyota owner goes to vented rotors, many of them slotted and cross drilled because it makes the truck stop better. Deny, please do.
I am going to go have a few beers and see if this makes sense. Back later.
"People vs. Crap" Wisconsin State Courts 1999.
What you are saying is wrong. Purely and simply wrong.
Every solid axle Toyota owner goes to vented rotors, many of them slotted and cross drilled because it makes the truck stop better. Deny, please do.
I am going to go have a few beers and see if this makes sense. Back later.
09-14-2006, 08:51 PM
#30
Registered User
No.
"People vs. Crap" Wisconsin State Courts 1999.
What you are saying is wrong. Purely and simply wrong.
Every solid axle Toyota owner goes to vented rotors, many of them slotted and cross drilled because it makes the truck stop better. Deny, please do.
I am going to go have a few beers and see if this makes sense. Back later.
"People vs. Crap" Wisconsin State Courts 1999.
What you are saying is wrong. Purely and simply wrong.
Every solid axle Toyota owner goes to vented rotors, many of them slotted and cross drilled because it makes the truck stop better. Deny, please do.
I am going to go have a few beers and see if this makes sense. Back later.
After you do that, I'll direct you to more information than you could ever want regarding braking ability, pads, rotors, calipers, books to read, whatever.
You're redefining physics
BTW, you're MISSING something, as I just re-read your post:
Every solid axle Toyota owner goes to vented rotors.... <SNIP>
I'm saying that you SHOULD use vented rotors, with as many vans between the two halves as possible.
I'm also saying the CROSS DRILLED rotors reduce the braking capability, everthing else being the same not increase it.
I'm not sure where you're getting that I said VENTED rotors don't work as well ???????
Vented rotors (as opposed to solid rotors) are the ONLY way to go.
Just not cross drilled
Best,
Fred
09-14-2006, 10:17 PM
#31
Registered User
Everything else being the same, drilled rotors provide LESS stopping power than solid/vented rotors.
Braking depends on the conversion of energy to heat.
The heat is produced by the friction of the pads against the rotors.
The more friction, the faster the stop.
Drilled rotors provide less surface area (as much as 20% or so, depending on brand) which translates to less friction and less stopping power.
The mass of the metal (rotors) acts as a heat sink and it's an important part of braking, the ability to absorb heat and then dissipate the heat.
Drilled rotors have less mass than solid, vented rotors.
Simply not true these days.
Years ago, yes, but the modern rubber brake hoses do not expand at all under any pressure that one is likely to run through then in a braking system.
Fred
Braking depends on the conversion of energy to heat.
The heat is produced by the friction of the pads against the rotors.
The more friction, the faster the stop.
Drilled rotors provide less surface area (as much as 20% or so, depending on brand) which translates to less friction and less stopping power.
The mass of the metal (rotors) acts as a heat sink and it's an important part of braking, the ability to absorb heat and then dissipate the heat.
Drilled rotors have less mass than solid, vented rotors.
Simply not true these days.
Years ago, yes, but the modern rubber brake hoses do not expand at all under any pressure that one is likely to run through then in a braking system.
Fred
As far as drilled and slotted rotors not working better. Well go tell that to the teeth, i left in the steering wheel of my Integra. When I locked its tires up doing 20 miles an hour. The car didnt skid, it didnt do anything, except STOP, and poor me, I kept going even with my seat belt on. Just about knocked my self out.
Ill put my cross-drilled and slotted rotors up against plain vented any day of the week.
I wont get into the physics of it. because frankly i dont give a $#@(. All i know is that it works. and i have scars to prove it works.
There alot of things in life that arent suppose to work. Arent supposed to exist but they do. So until you go and try them for your self dont tell those of us who have tried them that they dont work.
btw they may not make a differnce if your only going to the store to get milk every other thursday.
but if you want a combination that will let you rule the road and not have to worry about break fade. which is a HUGE HUGE HUGE problem with normal vented rotors and Oversized tires, try some drilled and slotted
I got into an accident 3 years ago that if i would have had my vented rotors then i could have totally avoided, but i couldnt stop fast enough because my oversized tires overheated my brakes and there i went, CRUNCH
BTW as a side note. some race cars use composite rotors and pads and they only work after reaching certain temps. below those temps they are near uselesss. personally i dont know whether sprint cars use them or not
Last edited by thefallman; 09-14-2006 at 10:30 PM.
09-14-2006, 11:59 PM
#32
Registered User
I run slotted cross drilled rotors on my 95. They stop exceptionally.
The physics of braking is not purely size and mass of the rotor.
The theory being advance is a rotor loses theorhetical advantage given two of initial identical size and weight. The one that is slottted, vented and cross drilled, according to your advice, will not stop better. The real world says it will.
I am disappointed this is going unchecked. It is just wrong.
The physics of braking is not purely size and mass of the rotor.
The theory being advance is a rotor loses theorhetical advantage given two of initial identical size and weight. The one that is slottted, vented and cross drilled, according to your advice, will not stop better. The real world says it will.
I am disappointed this is going unchecked. It is just wrong.
09-15-2006, 08:03 AM
#33
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*grabs popcorn and sets back to enjoy the show*
i am not going to argue....but just say that every car i have changes to drilled/slotted rotors has stopped much better than when they had solids...and like i said, i do an excessive amount of mountain up and down(seems like more down than up) hill driving and the LC Engineering Rotors are amazing
i am not going to argue....but just say that every car i have changes to drilled/slotted rotors has stopped much better than when they had solids...and like i said, i do an excessive amount of mountain up and down(seems like more down than up) hill driving and the LC Engineering Rotors are amazing
09-15-2006, 09:01 AM
#34
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I am on the side of the drilled/slotted rotors. Having experence with both and not getting into the science of it, I can say this. I never had drilled/slotted rotors on any of the 4 Toyotas that I have owned until my currant Toyota. IMO, stock Toyota brakes work well. I never believed the hype and I thought they were going to be expensive. About 4 years ago I started getting into prerunning and desert racing and had a brake setup that worked pretty good for me which was stock rotors and straight metallic pads. The pads were pretty expensive and didn't work well until they got fairly hot, but in instances where they would get extremely hot I would get brake fade and it could be downright scary at times but I would push the envalope (for fun purposes) and soon the brakes would be just about usless. I found out that LC drilled/slotted rotors were very compairable to the stock rotors so I bought them. I still use the same metallic pads and they still don't work that good until they are warm but as far as brake fade, it is nowhere near as bad as it was with the stockies and also I have noticed a decrease in warpage. Bottom line is when I need to use the brakes, I need brakes right then. To me there is nothing scarier than hitting the brakes and them not slowing you down much. I love my drilled/slotted but I think it all comes down to how you drive and what you use them for. Brake pads are a big part of it too.
09-15-2006, 06:35 PM
#35
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Quotes
*grabs popcorn and sets back to enjoy the show*
Walking in with another bag of popcorn- Mind if sit here?
I am into the physics, I wanna here the other side of that part.
I work with iron and steel, have poured iron in from a home made cupola (furnace), so I will definetly agree that iron is great at absorbing heat evenly vs steel, and that vented makes plenty of sense for better heat dissipation.
I am wondering if the people in favor of drilled rotors started with solid and/or worn out rotors and went vented, drilled for the replcements (with new pads too) and that is why they are noticing the difference. I am wondering if the fella that was chewing on his steering wheel was used to worn out brakes, and upon using his new brakes, found that he required a visit to the dentist. Was it because the brakes were new, more than because there are holes in the rotors?
I think the only way to settle this is for someone with new pads, vented, undrilled, iron rotors, test braking distance, from 60 mph to 0 mph. Do it 5 times count the average, and switch to new, vented, drilled, iron rotors, and complete the same test, averaging the 5 and see which brakes win. If you really wanna make sure there is no room for error here, you gotta replace the pads with new ones after the first 5.
My guess is that it would be a tie within 1 foot.
I just dont see how little holes would cause severe changes in brake effectivness.
*grabs popcorn and sets back to enjoy the show*
Walking in with another bag of popcorn- Mind if sit here?
I am into the physics, I wanna here the other side of that part.
I work with iron and steel, have poured iron in from a home made cupola (furnace), so I will definetly agree that iron is great at absorbing heat evenly vs steel, and that vented makes plenty of sense for better heat dissipation.
I am wondering if the people in favor of drilled rotors started with solid and/or worn out rotors and went vented, drilled for the replcements (with new pads too) and that is why they are noticing the difference. I am wondering if the fella that was chewing on his steering wheel was used to worn out brakes, and upon using his new brakes, found that he required a visit to the dentist. Was it because the brakes were new, more than because there are holes in the rotors?
I think the only way to settle this is for someone with new pads, vented, undrilled, iron rotors, test braking distance, from 60 mph to 0 mph. Do it 5 times count the average, and switch to new, vented, drilled, iron rotors, and complete the same test, averaging the 5 and see which brakes win. If you really wanna make sure there is no room for error here, you gotta replace the pads with new ones after the first 5.
My guess is that it would be a tie within 1 foot.
I just dont see how little holes would cause severe changes in brake effectivness.
Last edited by trythis; 09-15-2006 at 06:39 PM.
09-16-2006, 06:39 AM
#36
Registered User
I don't understand what the big deal is on this.
The tech is that vented/slotted/crossdrilled rotors stop better. This has been the choice of everyone for a long time.
Brining science into this theorhetically while ignoring real EXPERIENCE in favor of speculative musings is the epitome of sillyness.
On these boards, there are two sorts of answers:
1. I run this, it works for me, you should get it too.
2. I don't know
Talking about stuff you don't have and theorizing about stuff you haven't used is not helpful.
My truck stops better with slotted crossdrilled rotors than it did with stock rotors. Period.
How do your trucks stop?
The tech is that vented/slotted/crossdrilled rotors stop better. This has been the choice of everyone for a long time.
Brining science into this theorhetically while ignoring real EXPERIENCE in favor of speculative musings is the epitome of sillyness.
On these boards, there are two sorts of answers:
1. I run this, it works for me, you should get it too.
2. I don't know
Talking about stuff you don't have and theorizing about stuff you haven't used is not helpful.
My truck stops better with slotted crossdrilled rotors than it did with stock rotors. Period.
How do your trucks stop?
09-16-2006, 01:00 PM
#37
Registered User
Well heres the deal i had brand new rotors and pads on the integra then some idiot in a accord doing 70 decided that he needed to pull in between me and a chevelle while while we were 95 down I10 in AZ. well lets just say the brakes got warped FAST. Got the integra home put drilled and slotted brembo's on it. My buddy has an integra as well, he switched with in a month of me because of how much better my car braked.
Btw steering wheel incident happend about 6 months later. I hadnt been driving the car, it was summer and i had been driving my truck. So i had forgotten how sensitive those brakes where. you really had to ease into them. Needless to say i remembered quite violently. No actual damage done to me or the car but i did stop about 30 feet before the stop sign. quite violently
Btw steering wheel incident happend about 6 months later. I hadnt been driving the car, it was summer and i had been driving my truck. So i had forgotten how sensitive those brakes where. you really had to ease into them. Needless to say i remembered quite violently. No actual damage done to me or the car but i did stop about 30 feet before the stop sign. quite violently
Last edited by thefallman; 09-16-2006 at 01:06 PM.
09-16-2006, 04:25 PM
#38
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So what about drilled rotors getting dirt and junk trapped, causeing premature pad wear?
09-16-2006, 06:56 PM
#40
Registered User
He didn't ask what made the brakes stop. He asked what were the best brakes.
If someone asks about lifting a truck, I don't tell him about k, progressive springs, the history and physics of spring steel construction.
If someone asks about lifting a truck, I don't tell him about k, progressive springs, the history and physics of spring steel construction.
