jjswenn

Hey YT,

Yet another issue with the 95 4x4 22re. I noticed my brake lights on while not pressing the pedal and with ignition on. They get brighter hen I press the pedal, slightly, but are firing both filaments at all times. I checked the usual fuses and relays, swapping a few from my stash, and bulbs. I’ve narrowed it down to something with the EFI, as ALL my lights work fine from the toggle and pedal when the EFI fuse is removed. Put the 15 A fuse back in and I can hear the EFI relay click and the brake lights turn on. It’s bizarre BS. Anyway, I’m in the process of searching my factory repair manuals to chase down whatever is causing the issue and could use some ideas. Thanks

millball

Normally wired brake lights will come on when the pedal is pressed, regardlesss of whether the ignition is on, or not.

jjswenn

Yes, brake lights should work with ignition off. What I’m saying is, and I shoulda been more clear, that whenever I put the key in and ignition on, my brake lights come on as if I’m pressing the pedal. They’ll get a tad brighter upon pedal pressed, but they’re obviously lighting BOTH filaments and should not without the brakes pressed. Also, at first my third top light wasn’t working either. It is now, but odd. So I’ve done the usual bulbs, fuses and relay swaps to no avail. I’m guessing I have a short somewhere causing the EFI and brake lights to have power when the ignition is on. Stupid, I know. This truck likes to do things like this to me. I treat her oh so sweet with the best an aging Toyota lady could ask for, but she always seems to step out and do me wrong. My other Toyotas (81 4x4 and 86 4Runner) give me very little trouble. They’re good girls. I have all the manuals and books for this year make and model, but electrical seems to challenge my biology and chemistry background. I thought someone HAS to have experienced something similar and know where to look.

jjswenn

Update:

So I’ve discovered that plugging/unplugging the 15 A dome light fuse at the engine fuse box causes my stereo to turn on/off, as well. The stereo deck resets as if I’ve disconnected the negative/positive battery terminal when installing/removing the dome fuse. So yeah, there’s that fun. Brake lights still fire up every time I turn key to ignition on. I should add that regardless of key on position the 15 A dome fuse gives a little zap (not to me but just slightly) as I install/remove it. So somewhere I have a cross between the brake lights/EFI/ and or ignition wiring. I’ve chased a bunch of wires and everything looks good under the main fuse box where the wiring harness enters in. Damn frustrating this dilemma. Thanks

scope103

That's (mostly) normal. The radio requires always-on power (to remember the presets), which is through the DOME fuse.

The "two filaments" aren't both brake lights; one is brake, the other turn. Do your front turn signals come on as well? How about the combination-meter (instrument panel) bulbs? This can sometimes be caused by a broken ground in the back. Remove the turn/brake bulbs in the back (to eliminate back-feeding). Does that change anything? With the bulbs out, test the W-B to see if they are a good ground (you'll need a long lead from the battery to the test light).

The ignition switch has two switched circuits; IG1 and IG2. The turn signals are on IG1, the EFI relay on IG2. I'd try disconnecting the turn signal (stalk) switch at C13 (under the steering column) to see if that affects it.

jjswenn

Hey Scope, glad you’re here to help. I’ve read a lot of your posts over the years. So on my truck the brake light bulbs have two filaments (one for running lights with the lights on etc, and another, making two total in that bulb, for brake light illumination. With the running lights off when hitting the brakes both filaments also light up. It’s one bulb with two filaments. Both filaments are illuminating when I put the key to on position, yet my lights are off at the toggle and I’m not pressing the brakes. Now, when my key is NOT in the on position everything works as it should (one filament lights when toggle is on and two filaments when pressing the brakes etc). And my front lights are not effected, but I run the Amazon cheap (but bright) LEDs with the harness adapter on those. Blinkers work fine as well and seem to work as they should.

I had a similar situation happen years back that ended up being a shorted filament when the bulb failed (both filaments were lighting when lights were on at the toggle and the failed filament had fused itself to the other filament) but that was ONLY with the lights on, not key in the on position as this issue is. Initially I thought a quick bulb swap would fix this as well, but not so lucky.

Lastly, when I initially pulled the 15A EFI fuse under the hood for inspection it had blown so drastically that it shot the left spade connector down into the fuse box, but was still actually attached to the right side (as if heat had melted it etc sort of) and so the connection was still functional. That fuse was mangled. I’ll admit I didn’t check that EFI fuse until we’ll into troubleshooting the lights. It just didn’t seem like a place to start for lighting issues. But clearly I have a problem somewhere between the lights and EFI. Let me know what ideas are had. Thanks

jjswenn

So in my haste this weekend scrounging/swapping parts I seemed to have mixed up the brake relay I removed from the truck (1995 pickup 4x4 22RE California) with one from my parts bin. I suspect the relay could be causing my brake lights to stay on with key on.. So what is the difference here. Both have identical part numbers Toyota M3 90987-01003 and 056700-4800. But as we can see in the images I’ve provided, they have different pin/circuit configurations, I believe? So which relay is correct for my application? I just need anyone with a 93-95 22RE to pop the relay out from the drivers side kick and tell me which one they have. Or to be educated about how they are the same, if so.. In any case, at this point I don’t even know which I need and can’t order until I know. Stupid, I know. But it’s also possible that I had the wrong relay in there from the get go, maybe, and that is the reason I’ve had issues in the past. I’d be grateful for a confirmation which one is indeed correct. O’Reillys and autozone near me didn’t carry either, but I can have it ordered by them or via Amazon.

Relay # 1 opinion.

Relay #2 option.

scope103

I really doubt you have a "brake" relay. The brake lights should work with key-off, so there is no need for a relay.

What you're holding probably represents the Taillight relay. According to my EWD, that relay (also used for the horn) has the pin-outs of your second picture. This dealer https://parts.lakelandtoyota.com/p/T...098702009.html says the correct part number is 90987-02009 , but the photos I could find show that part has a different pin configuration than 90987-01003 .

But what is missing is the relationship of the pin "numbers" to the pins. That appears to be shown on the side of the relay, away from the camera. Are they both the same? Or are pins 1 and 2 switched? You don't care about the numbers, just the function (and whether the pins will match the socket).

But this is just a multimeter job, no matter what other Toyota owners might have. You only have three pins. One should be constant power (usually pin 2), the other end of the relay coil should be grounded with lights-on (usually pin 1), and the third pin distributes battery power to the TAIL fuse and on to the lamps. If you don't have a similar configuration of the pins, the relay won't make any difference.

Good luck!

jjswenn

[QUOTE=scope103;52475035]I really doubt you have a "brake" relay. The brake lights should work with key-off, so there is no need for a relay.

What you're holding probably represents the Taillight relay. According to my EWD, that relay (also used for the horn) has the pin-outs of your second picture. This dealer https://parts.lakelandtoyota.com/p/T...098702009.html says the correct part number is 90987-02009 , but the photos I could find show that part has a different pin configuration than 90987-01003 .

But what is missing is the relationship of the pin "numbers" to the pins. That appears to be shown on the side of the relay, away from the camera. Are they both the same? Or are pins 1 and 2 switched? You don't care about the numbers, just the function (and whether the pins will match the socket).

But this is just a multimeter job, no matter what other Toyota owners might have. You only have three pins. One should be constant power (usually pin 2), the other end of the relay coil should be grounded with lights-on (usually pin 1), and the third pin distributes battery power to the TAIL fuse and on to the lamps. If you don't have a similar configuration of the pins, the relay won't make any difference.

Good luck![/

I see, so they ARE indeed the exact same functioning relay, just called different PIN numbers. Once the relay is plugged in it functions identically, I believe. Thanks for paving the road.

Both relays and their pin configurations

jjswenn

It’s been a few weeks I’ve had my 95 pickup parked due to my tail/brake light issue. With key in on position my brake lights are still coming on. I’ve confirmed it is not the brake switch at the pedal, and it’s not the tail relay. However, when jiggling the tail light relay at junction box 1 (drivers kick panel), I can get the light-on beep to happen steady as well as both the tail lights (just running not brake lights) AND front corner running lights to come on. So I’m still searching and looking for the reason. Let me know. Again, jiggling the tail relay causes the constant beep (light on door open reminder), front corner running lights, and tail running lights to come on. Thanks.

akwheeler

I've seen some strange things with running lights and brake lights caused by incorrect bulbs or incorrect installation of light bulbs. you would think it is simple and couldn't be fouled up but it can.
try removing both of your tail light bulbs and install one at a time and see if your issues change or go away, make sure they are both the correct ones for your truck and that the contacts line up correctly with the socket when the bulb is installed.

jjswenn

Hey Akwheeler,

Thanks for the reply, and yeah, I’ve seen some serious weird stuff too. I had my brake lights staying on years back on the same truck, and it turned out to be a filament had failed and fused to the other inside the bulb. That took me a day to figure out..

UPDATE:

Late last night I started back tracking all the crap I’d done in the last few months. I’d been messing with the ecu a bit and making sure my pins were contacting the harness etc. Well, in another thread a few weeks back I mentioned whether or not I should have a wire at the STP pin of the ecu given my year make model drivetrain transmission. So yeah, somehow I managed to swap my STP (green wire white stripe) into the (+B1) terminal of my ecu. This resulted in constant voltage going to my brake light bulbs whenever the key was in the on position. Well, that’ll do it. I’m always very careful when play with wiring, especially at the ecu, but this was a good lesson in that one can never take too much care. I must have been distracted by a call or the wife entering the shop etc to talk… who knows. Or, I just plain messed up. The lights work as they should after swapping the green wire white stripe into STP, and I was able to confirm it’s the correct configuration by testing for continuity when the brakes are applied. “Stupid is as stupid does”.

Thanks YT

akwheeler

Thanks for the closure jj, it's always nice when a thread has a beginning middle and end!

scope103

Uh, not so fast. Jiggling relays (connectors, sensors) should never do anything. What do you think happens to that stuff every time you hit a pothole? Depending on how energetic your "jiggling" was, you may have a loose socket, a cracked wire, etc. Up to you, but if it was my truck, I'd carefully inspect that relay and everything that moves when you jiggle it.

jjswenn

Yeah, great point scope. I left out a piece. So initially I started swapping tail light relays at junction box 1. And yes, one of those relays made my lights do tricks when jiggled. However, the other did not. Why? Not sure. But for now I have the “jiggle proof” relay in there and things are working fine, even when jiggled. It’s definitely something I’d like to investigate further, but I attempted to remove that entire junction at the drivers kick and it’s probably the toughest electrical box to remove on the vehicle, especially with alarm and stereo wiring crapping up the area. So I’m gonna roll with it for now.

jjswenn

Final update:

It’s been a few weeks now after fixing my unintentionally swapped ecu pin wires, and my brake lights work as they should, still. That was a good lesson in attentiveness while playing with the ecu and wiring. It soaked about a weekend from me in time. Thanks