87 4Runner 22RE troubleshooting help needed
08-25-2010, 04:13 PM
#661
Registered User
What do I think? I think I'd do what Todd suggests to the "T". As for the head they offer, that's up to you. If it tingles your jingles, go for it. You'd get a head that you know was done right and save yourself the headache of fooling with this thing that was apparently done wrong. Atleast for now. You could go with their product and tinker with the present one at your leisure. If I had the money, that's what I'd do. Get a smile on that face ASAP!
Glad you called them, Mark. I knew you'd get very good advice.
Glad you called them, Mark. I knew you'd get very good advice.
08-25-2010, 04:46 PM
#662
The funny thing about toyota obd-1 diagnosis lights is... IF you have a CA truck, the check engine light will NOT activate unless one of the sensors/systems interferes with the emissions system in some way. If there is no detected change to the emissions system, you could probably drive around with 2 cylinders and the CEL would not illuminate. Do not use the "codes" as a way to diagnose driveability problems. Unless of course they also are causing emissions problems.
Think about it this way, the camshaft on my 89 was worn down so much that it barely lifted the intake valve at all... and it had NO CEL and no codes.
TRD cams are about 199 or less from the dealer, I don't know about engnbldr. I do know that since your truck is high mileage, you cannot assume that any of the parts are not worn out. Heck, when I got my 89, it had 278000 miles. I wasn't shy about changing the TPS or the cam or cap and rotor or thermostat or anything that gets worn out from high miles.
About me lookin' at the engine, Im in Sacramento so it might be kind of far...
Think about it this way, the camshaft on my 89 was worn down so much that it barely lifted the intake valve at all... and it had NO CEL and no codes.
TRD cams are about 199 or less from the dealer, I don't know about engnbldr. I do know that since your truck is high mileage, you cannot assume that any of the parts are not worn out. Heck, when I got my 89, it had 278000 miles. I wasn't shy about changing the TPS or the cam or cap and rotor or thermostat or anything that gets worn out from high miles.
About me lookin' at the engine, Im in Sacramento so it might be kind of far...
08-25-2010, 04:51 PM
#663
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Im glad its finally been narrowed down to a specific part, the head, either the valves or the cam. After all the time you have put into this i think your getting to the end. So are you going to get a new head from engine builder or are you going to try replacing the cam only ?.
08-25-2010, 05:42 PM
#664
And; Uh ohhhhh, what's going on? Whahappan?
What do I think? I think I'd do what Todd suggests to the "T". As for the head they offer, that's up to you. If it tingles your jingles, go for it. You'd get a head that you know was done right and save yourself the headache of fooling with this thing that was apparently done wrong. Atleast for now. You could go with their product and tinker with the present one at your leisure. If I had the money, that's what I'd do. Get a smile on that face ASAP!
Glad you called them, Mark. I knew you'd get very good advice.
Glad you called them, Mark. I knew you'd get very good advice.
hahaha. It's all good, ....I just think it kinda sucks, ..but whatever, it is what it is. Hopefully they're RIGHT, too, eh? lol. The funny thing about toyota obd-1 diagnosis lights is... IF you have a CA truck, the check engine light will NOT activate unless one of the sensors/systems interferes with the emissions system in some way. If there is no detected change to the emissions system, you could probably drive around with 2 cylinders and the CEL would not illuminate. Do not use the "codes" as a way to diagnose driveability problems. Unless of course they also are causing emissions problems.
Think about it this way, the camshaft on my 89 was worn down so much that it barely lifted the intake valve at all... and it had NO CEL and no codes.
TRD cams are about 199 or less from the dealer, I don't know about engnbldr. I do know that since your truck is high mileage, you cannot assume that any of the parts are not worn out. Heck, when I got my 89, it had 278000 miles. I wasn't shy about changing the TPS or the cam or cap and rotor or thermostat or anything that gets worn out from high miles.
About me lookin' at the engine, Im in Sacramento so it might be kind of far...
Think about it this way, the camshaft on my 89 was worn down so much that it barely lifted the intake valve at all... and it had NO CEL and no codes.
TRD cams are about 199 or less from the dealer, I don't know about engnbldr. I do know that since your truck is high mileage, you cannot assume that any of the parts are not worn out. Heck, when I got my 89, it had 278000 miles. I wasn't shy about changing the TPS or the cam or cap and rotor or thermostat or anything that gets worn out from high miles.
About me lookin' at the engine, Im in Sacramento so it might be kind of far...
Also, the motor? 800 Miles on a fresh rebuild with all new EVERYTHING on the head but the cam and rockers, new pistons, rings, rods, bearings, timing chain kit, gears, timing cover, crank from low miles motor, water pump, oil pump, ......etc. So that's why I'm a bit stunned. It was done with nearly 260K on the motor though. So, I can pretty much bet that the cam is original. Not sure that's really common, but I guess it's possible. The only thing throwing me on that is that it's still doing the same type of erratic miss and such as before the build.... But the Guru's thus far have said, "That's why i lean at Cam" or "Valve seat on head wasn't ever fixed right during rebuilding", etc.,. etc. And, about the coming over to help? I was just messing around, man. HOWEVER, if anyone else who's in LA County or near by wants to stop in and help me do this???? I'D NEVER SAY NO TO THAT! hahaha. Im glad its finally been narrowed down to a specific part, the head, either the valves or the cam. After all the time you have put into this i think your getting to the end. So are you going to get a new head from engine builder or are you going to try replacing the cam only ?.
lol) Thanks for the shouts, guys.... KEEP EM COMING!
08-25-2010, 08:27 PM
#666
Joe, seriously....
Thanks, brudda, for offering to help. That's very kind, man! If I only knew exactly how long this would take us... heck, I wouldn't totally throw that idea out the window, ya know? I would really LOVE to hit Pismo some time in the near future! I should probably try to be more practical, for the moment, and try to either knock it out myself asap or hope for someone in LA County to offer a hand. I tell you what, though.... I would DEFINITELY buy an Engnbldr street head before I paid someone 750$ to pull my head and do a valve/cam job, hahaha. Heck, ... it would cost me around 200$ less to put in a brand new head from them, myself, than the other way, lol. I tell you one more thing.... My employers weren't too happy to hear this news, either. Guess I better get cracking or leave it be, .........and I guess you can just tell, if you've learned anything about me, ... I CAN'T let this be, hahaha. I doubt I can, anyway, lol!
I'll keep that in mind, Joe. Heck, if I paid for your gas,....wanna take the trip? lol.
Take care, man! Thanks again for the offer... I'll letcha know.
Mark
Thanks, brudda, for offering to help. That's very kind, man! If I only knew exactly how long this would take us... heck, I wouldn't totally throw that idea out the window, ya know? I would really LOVE to hit Pismo some time in the near future! I should probably try to be more practical, for the moment, and try to either knock it out myself asap or hope for someone in LA County to offer a hand. I tell you what, though.... I would DEFINITELY buy an Engnbldr street head before I paid someone 750$ to pull my head and do a valve/cam job, hahaha. Heck, ... it would cost me around 200$ less to put in a brand new head from them, myself, than the other way, lol. I tell you one more thing.... My employers weren't too happy to hear this news, either. Guess I better get cracking or leave it be, .........and I guess you can just tell, if you've learned anything about me, ... I CAN'T let this be, hahaha. I doubt I can, anyway, lol!
I'll keep that in mind, Joe. Heck, if I paid for your gas,....wanna take the trip? lol.
Take care, man! Thanks again for the offer... I'll letcha know.
Mark
08-25-2010, 11:51 PM
#668
Registered User
The funny thing about toyota obd-1 diagnosis lights is... IF you have a CA truck, the check engine light will NOT activate unless one of the sensors/systems interferes with the emissions system in some way. If there is no detected change to the emissions system, you could probably drive around with 2 cylinders and the CEL would not illuminate. Do not use the "codes" as a way to diagnose driveability problems. Unless of course they also are causing emissions problems.
What you seem to be saying is akin to a red light not being a good indicator to come to a stop.
EFI was designed with emissions efficiency in mind. So, you could almost say the entire system is an emissions system. But, that really isn't the entire picture because the fuel injection system is simply what runs the vehicle..... emissions efficiency aside. If the ECU is able to detect a voltage anomoly outside the range necessary to control fuel injection within any given circuit, it will set a diagnostic code even if it's not detected by the O2 circuit. That's the whole point of onboard diagnostics; to help the mechanic troubleshoot the circuit a drivability problem is on with emissions, ultimately, in mind.
The O2/closed loop function is the emissions system. It's the only way the ECU is able to monitor emissions output and therefore adhere to catalyst effeciency. But, OBD1 is not so limited that it can't tell you if, for example, there's a break in the TPS circuit..........which would cause driveability problems......even before the ECU is able to enter closed loop function. Of course, the limitation is, like you said, a mechanical problem may not be detected. Or, even, if a sensor is malfunctioning yet is still operating within voltage range.
Think about it this way, the camshaft on my 89 was worn down so much that it barely lifted the intake valve at all... and it had NO CEL and no codes.
TRD cams are about 199 or less from the dealer, I don't know about engnbldr. I do know that since your truck is high mileage, you cannot assume that any of the parts are not worn out. Heck, when I got my 89, it had 278000 miles. I wasn't shy about changing the TPS or the cam or cap and rotor or thermostat or anything that gets worn out from high miles.
About me lookin' at the engine, Im in Sacramento so it might be kind of far...
What you seem to be saying is akin to a red light not being a good indicator to come to a stop.
EFI was designed with emissions efficiency in mind. So, you could almost say the entire system is an emissions system. But, that really isn't the entire picture because the fuel injection system is simply what runs the vehicle..... emissions efficiency aside. If the ECU is able to detect a voltage anomoly outside the range necessary to control fuel injection within any given circuit, it will set a diagnostic code even if it's not detected by the O2 circuit. That's the whole point of onboard diagnostics; to help the mechanic troubleshoot the circuit a drivability problem is on with emissions, ultimately, in mind.
The O2/closed loop function is the emissions system. It's the only way the ECU is able to monitor emissions output and therefore adhere to catalyst effeciency. But, OBD1 is not so limited that it can't tell you if, for example, there's a break in the TPS circuit..........which would cause driveability problems......even before the ECU is able to enter closed loop function. Of course, the limitation is, like you said, a mechanical problem may not be detected. Or, even, if a sensor is malfunctioning yet is still operating within voltage range.
Think about it this way, the camshaft on my 89 was worn down so much that it barely lifted the intake valve at all... and it had NO CEL and no codes.
TRD cams are about 199 or less from the dealer, I don't know about engnbldr. I do know that since your truck is high mileage, you cannot assume that any of the parts are not worn out. Heck, when I got my 89, it had 278000 miles. I wasn't shy about changing the TPS or the cam or cap and rotor or thermostat or anything that gets worn out from high miles.
About me lookin' at the engine, Im in Sacramento so it might be kind of far...
08-26-2010, 05:16 AM
#669
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its only 6 bolts to split the intake..
remember picture picture pictures .. bags and tags.. paint markers or permenant marks are key..
whos to stay.. you wont run into time issue and not be able to finsh in one day...
remember picture picture pictures .. bags and tags.. paint markers or permenant marks are key..
whos to stay.. you wont run into time issue and not be able to finsh in one day...
08-26-2010, 05:55 AM
#670
YotaTech Milestone-Two Millionth Post
hey Chef.....boy, this has gotten quite interesting in a hurry.
quite the enigma.
i do believe i recall 4crawler installing a TRD cam.....maybe reference his site for that.
not going to pretend i could regurgitate everything i read on this page, but i think i understand the basics here.
dangit bud, i'd be there in a minute if i lived close to ya......to learn a little and eat alot!!!!!
good luck....still watching
quite the enigma.
i do believe i recall 4crawler installing a TRD cam.....maybe reference his site for that.
not going to pretend i could regurgitate everything i read on this page, but i think i understand the basics here.
dangit bud, i'd be there in a minute if i lived close to ya......to learn a little and eat alot!!!!!
good luck....still watching
08-26-2010, 10:35 AM
#672
Ahhhhh, I know, lol.
hey Chef.....boy, this has gotten quite interesting in a hurry.
quite the enigma.
i do believe i recall 4crawler installing a TRD cam.....maybe reference his site for that.
not going to pretend i could regurgitate everything i read on this page, but i think i understand the basics here.
dangit bud, i'd be there in a minute if i lived close to ya......to learn a little and eat alot!!!!!
good luck....still watching
quite the enigma.
i do believe i recall 4crawler installing a TRD cam.....maybe reference his site for that.
not going to pretend i could regurgitate everything i read on this page, but i think i understand the basics here.
dangit bud, i'd be there in a minute if i lived close to ya......to learn a little and eat alot!!!!!
good luck....still watching
. I have lots of respect for you, Jer'...... you persevered, NO DOUBT, over some pretty sticky gremlins and, well, just mistakes from 'first timing', ....much like me! hahah. Anyway, I feel like I"m going to wake up and find 10 or so Yotatechies on my lawn, waiting for a PHAT breakfast and Mimosas(or Clamato and Negro Modelo for my hungover homies! hahaha) Just kiddin.... but actually, I'd REALLY love to have a hand from someone in Calif, nearby. 
<<< just like him, with 'wrench in hand', lol. That would be really cool.... But honestly? I don't think I could do that to everyone. All these guys on a VACATION, trying to just wind down and have some fun over the weekend.... working on my rig? lol. Wouldn't that make me pretty much loathed? lol Hey, if I'm not able to do it until then, and you guys say, "SHUT UPPPPPP, get up here man, let's do it!" .... I'M THERE, BRUDDA!
hahaha. In all seriousness..... I think my main concern at this point is getting this valve/cam issue 'JUST RIGHT'. I want this thing PURRING, even if it ends up that I have some type of voltage issue or otherwise, due to something in the harness, etc....ya know? I've been going over it, incessantly, in my head, trying to think of anything else that could be involved, ya know?... but trust me, I'm not doubting that I have SOMETHING wrong that would cause such A DRAMATIC bounce in vacuum, still be present on propane, etc. BUT; The idling down again thing?, ...that's really got me a lil puzzled and, well, concerned... Why? Because, if I tear this all down, reinstall the head, valves all tight and straight, cam just right...and then I'm still idling down, etc.(other issues like voltage load/idle drop, etc.), and I end up HAVING TO TEAR INTO SOMETHING DEEPER? ... Well, now that I think about it... the gremlin would be saying,"YEAH?YEAH???? WHATCHA GONNA DO, DUMMY? BRING IT!" hahah. So I guess I'll just have to cross that bridge when I get there, eh? lol...... It's just that, well, it would be nice to put the 'electrical bears to bed' before snugging everything back up, ya know?
08-26-2010, 12:54 PM
#673
Bumpity! lol.....
PS> I'm heading out to do a 3-4 time compression test, per instructions by 'Tod' at engnbldr....
Just having a lil issue with the propane guy saying 'CAM, very doubtful the vavles' and Tod saying 'VERY big reach for the CAM... I say valves"... and I'd like some input on how to get to either conclusion, other than the straight edge across the tops of the valve stems, etc., checking for bendijuwaiah! lol. Seems like I'm going to need some final input on how to resolve this, either way. i would think that the CAM wouldn't show as much fluctuation in Compression, where as a bent valve, or screwed up seating/clearance/seal, etc., might show more, ya know? The propane guy was telling me, "Yeah, you're gonna really be hard pressed to find the cam issue with a compression test....doesn't work that way".... ??????? Oi vey! lol.
Bueller, bueller,...anyone? lol.
PS> I'm heading out to do a 3-4 time compression test, per instructions by 'Tod' at engnbldr....
Just having a lil issue with the propane guy saying 'CAM, very doubtful the vavles' and Tod saying 'VERY big reach for the CAM... I say valves"... and I'd like some input on how to get to either conclusion, other than the straight edge across the tops of the valve stems, etc., checking for bendijuwaiah! lol. Seems like I'm going to need some final input on how to resolve this, either way. i would think that the CAM wouldn't show as much fluctuation in Compression, where as a bent valve, or screwed up seating/clearance/seal, etc., might show more, ya know? The propane guy was telling me, "Yeah, you're gonna really be hard pressed to find the cam issue with a compression test....doesn't work that way".... ??????? Oi vey! lol.
Bueller, bueller,...anyone? lol.
08-26-2010, 02:39 PM
#674
Compression Test Results: (Did each one 3 times and then once, wet)
Cylinder #1;
1.)... 162#
2.)... 164#
3.)... 163# (So an Average of 163 on #1)
WET) 173#
Cylinder #2;
1.)... 165#
2.)... 162#
3.)... 162# (So an Average of 163 on #2)
WET). 170#
Cylinder #3;
1.)... 168#
2.)... 167#
3.)... 168# (So an Average of 167.67 on #3)
WET). 174#
Cylinder #4;
1.)... 173#
2.)... 176#
3.)... 173# (So an Average of 174 on #4)
WET). 181#
************************************************** *****
Here are some pics of my plugs. I double checked the gap on all 4. All 4 were right at .31, except for #3 plug which was at .33 or so. Nothing enough to call major attention.
Here are the pics;
Any thoughts, guys? Brand new Pistons and rings, etc., etc.? COULD the Cam show variations like this?????? Really need some input, thanks!
Mark
Cylinder #1;
1.)... 162#
2.)... 164#
3.)... 163# (So an Average of 163 on #1)
WET) 173#
Cylinder #2;
1.)... 165#
2.)... 162#
3.)... 162# (So an Average of 163 on #2)
WET). 170#
Cylinder #3;
1.)... 168#
2.)... 167#
3.)... 168# (So an Average of 167.67 on #3)
WET). 174#
Cylinder #4;
1.)... 173#
2.)... 176#
3.)... 173# (So an Average of 174 on #4)
WET). 181#
************************************************** *****
Here are some pics of my plugs. I double checked the gap on all 4. All 4 were right at .31, except for #3 plug which was at .33 or so. Nothing enough to call major attention.
Here are the pics;
Any thoughts, guys? Brand new Pistons and rings, etc., etc.? COULD the Cam show variations like this?????? Really need some input, thanks!
Mark
08-26-2010, 03:30 PM
#675
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Your compression tests looks real good, all of the plugs look good (atleast to me they do), so i think its all coming down to a cam problem, im also noticing how much higher the compression is reading in number 4 cylinder, that just doesn`t seem right to me, but im no expert when it comes to this type of thing.
08-26-2010, 05:55 PM
#676
Hey Mr. Idaho, ...howzit? lol..........,
Thanks for stopping in. Yeah, I was looking for a 'SERIOUS DROP' in one. However, what I found was normal, normal, normal, lil high but still normal! lol. I have to give Tod another call, and possibly, I should call TED? Just curious what they think. What really puzzles me is that Vacuum Jumping an inch, rapidly, back and forth! The guy at the shop that did the propane test said, "A bad cam CAN do that".... While I thought I remembered Tod at engnbldr saying "I really doubt that it's the CAM"... Can't be sure if he said it wouldn't cause a vacuum vibration though. I also don't imagine a vacuum leak is in the mix any more, considering he ran it on propane and it was doing the same thing, along with the vacuum fluctuation thing, ya know?
This "not of the normal" type gremlin crap is getting old, Myyota! hahhaha. It's ok... it's just, geeesh
hahaha. I don't remember ANY thread I've read talking about "My cam was bad and I couldn't get it timed!" lol... I guess there probably is some...but I can't remember reading them, lol.
Anywhooooooooo, thanks for stopping in. If you can think of anyone on here or otherwise that might help me shed some light on PINPOINTING "CAM OR VALVE" issue??? I'd be grateful, bud!
Thanks again,
Mark
Thanks for stopping in. Yeah, I was looking for a 'SERIOUS DROP' in one. However, what I found was normal, normal, normal, lil high but still normal! lol. I have to give Tod another call, and possibly, I should call TED? Just curious what they think. What really puzzles me is that Vacuum Jumping an inch, rapidly, back and forth! The guy at the shop that did the propane test said, "A bad cam CAN do that".... While I thought I remembered Tod at engnbldr saying "I really doubt that it's the CAM"... Can't be sure if he said it wouldn't cause a vacuum vibration though. I also don't imagine a vacuum leak is in the mix any more, considering he ran it on propane and it was doing the same thing, along with the vacuum fluctuation thing, ya know?
This "not of the normal" type gremlin crap is getting old, Myyota! hahhaha. It's ok... it's just, geeesh
hahaha. I don't remember ANY thread I've read talking about "My cam was bad and I couldn't get it timed!" lol... I guess there probably is some...but I can't remember reading them, lol. Anywhooooooooo, thanks for stopping in. If you can think of anyone on here or otherwise that might help me shed some light on PINPOINTING "CAM OR VALVE" issue??? I'd be grateful, bud!
Thanks again,
Mark
08-26-2010, 06:08 PM
#677
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The cam is what sets the vacuum for the engine, so if you get a bad cam that can make the vacuum read all over the place like yours is doing. You know its not the valves now because your compression is good in all cylinders, so that only leaves one thing, the cam. With all of the tests that you have had done and nothing else showing up that has to be it.
08-26-2010, 06:36 PM
#678
I hear ya... I was just wondering either way. Curious why #4 is so high, as well. Hmmmmmmm Maybe that valve is just too tight?..Not enough clearance?
So, you think that, if I had a bent valve on one or more... it would be reading much lower compression? Couldn't it read "HIGHER"< if the valve is not opening enough or hardly at all?... Meaning, #4 is too tight, thus lean, thus, the ECU is being told , "DUMP MORE FUEL IN THE OTHER THREE!" ?? I guess not, because it always comes back to the vacuum thing.... Unless the cam can't open that valve properly for another reason, more due to the valve's components?
Sorry, don't mean to drill ya with 30 Questions, lol... Just trying to make sense of it. Could a Rocker assembly that's hanging up cause a reading like that? I guess that would also possibly bend a valve, right?
Anyway, I appreciate you taking any time here to help me out, Myyota... I think I've lost most of those that were following, earlier, hahahaa. Don't blame em...it's become tedious. However, Hopefully, this will become a very concise thread to refer to on 'WHAT TO CHECK, FIRST, IF ...THIS, ...OR THIS...OR THIS', LOL... know what I mean? haha.
So, you think that, if I had a bent valve on one or more... it would be reading much lower compression? Couldn't it read "HIGHER"< if the valve is not opening enough or hardly at all?... Meaning, #4 is too tight, thus lean, thus, the ECU is being told , "DUMP MORE FUEL IN THE OTHER THREE!" ?? I guess not, because it always comes back to the vacuum thing.... Unless the cam can't open that valve properly for another reason, more due to the valve's components?
Sorry, don't mean to drill ya with 30 Questions, lol... Just trying to make sense of it. Could a Rocker assembly that's hanging up cause a reading like that? I guess that would also possibly bend a valve, right?
Anyway, I appreciate you taking any time here to help me out, Myyota... I think I've lost most of those that were following, earlier, hahahaa. Don't blame em...it's become tedious. However, Hopefully, this will become a very concise thread to refer to on 'WHAT TO CHECK, FIRST, IF ...THIS, ...OR THIS...OR THIS', LOL... know what I mean? haha.
08-26-2010, 07:43 PM
#679
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If you had a bent valve you would have no compression at all, or very little if any at all. if the rocker assembly was worn out i would assume it could cause problems, but i seriously doubt that`s your problem.
Last edited by myyota; 08-26-2010 at 07:46 PM.
08-26-2010, 08:30 PM
#680
Registered User
Hey buddy..... Actually, what happened was: "Replaced original ECU with Donor from a Yotetechie who came by... It started throwing 02 and Knock Sensor Codes.... Put back the old ECU, they went away, but idled down bad again as going into closed loop..... replaced with donor ECU that I'd taken all the parts off at my local yard(I watched it running, PERFECTLY..just rolled)... After that ECU, Still, no codes, and nothing seemingly as bad as with original ECU. I think the donor from the Yotatech buddy I made was just either bad or, maybe, canadian or something?(2-02s system with different knock sensor maybe????) OR, a freak chance that I have a voltage surge that is quickly going through old/weak ECU's? Lots of variables.... but I believe the Yotatech Friends DONOR ECU was not meant for my vehicle. It wouldn't read ANY O2 Signal at the ECU...Popped in, even the original.... VOILA, no codes and reading 02 at the ECU again)"
