thook

I've got no idea, Chef. Sorry. I will see what I can do, though.

So, did you test the coil with the wires disconnected?

myyota

Not always, ive seen bad coils arc from the coil wire plug to one of the wire terminals on either side of the coil. A coil can also go bad and put out a very weak voltage were the vehicle would still run but sometimes just barely or with a bad miss, ive seen both of these problems happen.

1990yota-pickup

i would just go buy a new coil.. and see if it makes a difference.. and then return it to a different part store.. so you dont have to haggle for your money back...

yotafreakshow

i have a coil/igniter that i got from ebay while chasing down a weird issue, ended up being the ecu...so i presume it is fine, pay the shipping and it's yours
here is that thread if you care to read my shorter ordeal:

https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...-codes-190395/

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for the idea... I'm going to try the donor, but I have an update... I'll explain in the next post.

X2 on above... and THANKS, MAN! Very cool of ya!

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

UPDATE;

I had a fairly decent discussion with a VERY respected Toyota(Japanese anything, actually) mechanic. He's the guy I'd been contemplating taking it into. He said, "I feel for ya man... been there. Tell you what, bring it down and I'll do the normally 200$ Full Propane Bypass of the injectors, etc., for free... Sound good?"

I WAS THERE IN 20 MINUTES, lol. Well, he went through some tests, (O2 readings, some ignitions tests, hooked it up to this crazy timing light with an RPM adjustment tool on it) and right away he said, "HMmmm, this is really strange. Your 02 is REALLY lagging, but it is working....besides, what I'm seeing wouldn't be caused by that." He went into some really complicated explanations and then went on to hook up the propane. We disconnected the fuel pump, a couple other things and he had this serious scope/tester on it and within a couple minutes, he sat back and scratched his chin, saying, "lemme think a minute". After a minute or so, he hooked up a vacuum gauge while doing another setting adjustment and said, "Your vacuum is good enough pressure, but see this?"(this whole time, the owner of the biz, and 2 other machinists were there, all commenting, etc.).. It was bouncing, rapidly, over an inch, and a couple times almost 2 inches.... He then said, "I know you're not gonna wanna hear this.... but I would bet you everything in my bosses pocket that it's something in the top end of the head. This is TOTALLY indicative of a CAM that is out of whack.....Possibly a valve issue, but you'd figure that out when you get in there. You said the guy did a grind on the CAM for you? That's VERY TRICKY.... who did it?" I told him, and he IMMEDIATELY rolled his eyes and said, "There ya go... HE, PERSONALLY, is one of the best machinists I've ever known... but I'll bet you, again, everything in my bosses pocket that HE DID NOT do it himself. I'd be willing to bet that the bottom end is fine, ...he usually does those. But the guy who's been doing the heads? Blechhhhhh!" .......

"OH LORD, please no!"..was the first thought out of my head, hahaha. To be honest, I didn't understand a lot of what he was explaining... I'd get some of it, but he'd lose me with the other half, so I'm not sure EXACTLY how he got there... but, he did say that, "ANY TIME I'm running on propane like that, and it's still missing, and I've pretty much verified the ignition system by comparing certain readings against my 'fuel air' test and many others....and the vacuum is bouncing, violently back and forth like that, over an inch?.... I'd say valve, first, but it's more likely your cam, I'd bet...Look, ...yes, you've had the entire motor rebuilt.... and that's why it's probably been the last thing on your mind... and by all notes I've read from you, you've done a good job chasing down everything that ANYONE would... but think about it... if that CAM, in the first place, was lobed out of spec, and then his guy in there, whoever it is, did a grind on it?..... You would still have the same miss, only a lil more prevalent like you're seeing, because it's got more clearance from the valve now... Yep, that's the very next thing I'd check, personally, is swapping out another cam. Personally, I'd just deal with it, unless you feel like pulling the head again. It's annoying, but you said it was missing, mildly, for a couple years, and over 80,000 miles.... and it still looked pretty good in there, right? I understand if you can't just let that go... But MAN, ...that's a lotta work to do all over again to get rid of a miss that's most likely, when fixed, not going to give you any more power, not much better mileage, and ...well...... Like I said, I'd just either do it on the weekends or drive it til around a half million miles and start over. Maybe a lil less considering the cam issue... but not much. S'up to you".

Well, as you can imagine, I'm NOT HAPPY! I'm going to have to really look into a few more things before I go doing a cam job. I am going to BEG him to type out a quick letter, or leave me a voice mail that I can type to explain exactly what he did and how he got there. But the thing is.... 3 GURU'S, all standing over it, during and after the tests he ran... they all said the same thing. In fact, one of the guys, a machinist, who walked up when we were just walking out to it... He leaned in the hood, saying, "That's a valve or the cam"....... Unfortunately prophetic, if they turn out to be right, eh? lol.

I guess I just really have a problem BUYING parts for something that I can't verify, first.(I.e., Coil, Dizzy, etc.).. .and from what he was explaining, some of the things he tested verified, to him and the others, that the ignition system is fine. Besides, the vacuum wouldn't jump around like that (VERY RAPIDLY bouncing back and forth a full inch or more) because of the ignition. The timing bouncing the way it does? sure.... that could be due to ignition issues, but not as NEARLY as likely as the CAM theory, he said, because it's constantly doing the same thing, over and over, no matter how much he adjusted things certain ways. And,I DO REMEMBER ONE Thing he said, ... "I had it at 50 Degrees BTDC before it would enrich enough to be at the proper 'Fuel Air Ratio'...

Is any of this making any sense to anyone? I could really use some input or things to verify/check, etc. He also said that if it's the cam, it's not likely going to tell me through compression testing. Because the compression is still there... it's just not allowing intake gases through a wide enough area, which causes a lean miss, which causes your 02 to send a signal to the ECU that it's lean, which causes the ECU to dump more fuel to compensate for that lean miss. Thus, your mileage suffers a bit... and you're idle is a bit erratic(not too bad), but TIMING?... THAT'S REALLY telling. It could be why your friends are leaning to 'Distributor'.... because it runs off the cam gear, which, if it's not operating properly, would cause a miss......You have go-go, and apparently plenty of power above idle, but not enough intake go-go is being produced to meet with that spark. He might even have not done the valves properly. You can set them all day, burning your cooking fingers, ...but if the CAM is not rolling on them properly... You'll have a miss that seems IMPOSSIBLE to find."

Anyway, I'm a bit bummed.... So I'm going to just chill out and watch a flick! lol. I'd appreciate, as I always do, promise.. any input at all.

Mark

PismoJoe

Hey Mark, I don't know why you seem to think I am burdened to look at your thread lol its yotatech GD it, I'm always lurking the threads, especially yours!

Anyways man, I would say that the guru's explanation makes perfect sense. Cam grinding is no joke, its difficult to get it just right. Do you have any record of the grind that your machinist went with? Did he give you a cam card if you ever have to degree it in again? Do you know if it had to be installed straight up, any info helps!

I mean, hypothetically, if it WASN'T in the top end, is there any system that you haven't personally checked and or replaced?? Seems to me like you have checked all of the loose ends in those areas.

I had a very similar issue in my 3rz-fe. Granted, its a 2002 so I wasn't as concerned with much beyond the cam position sensor or ignition coils. It was throwing a random misfire and was at about 1/2 compression on #3. After a long time of poking around here and there, I pulled the head. Well what do you know, whoever did the 90k tune up must have put in the wrong valve shims causing everything to be out of wack and actually destroyed the casting between the valves.

I would say if it really bugs you, which I think it does LOL (don't worry man I'm the same way, I know every creak and moan my truck makes and anything out of the ordinary will ruin my day!) just tear it down over the weekend like your mechanic was saying. I mean damn Mark, you are probably more knowledgeable about the 22RE than anyone I know after running all of the diagnosis, why not give it a shot eh?

Good luck to you Mark, and keep us posted on your decision for the next move.

thook

Making complete sense to me, Mark. Chill out, forget about the whole thing, do some other things you have fun at until you feel better and refreshed. Then, let's explore some options.

Dang.......

myyota

You can replace the cam with out pulling the head, its been done before and its not hard to do if you take your time.

thook

Tortis started a thread not long ago asking about the same thing......pulling the rocker arm assembly without removing the head. I was going to suggest the idea of this, but I wasn't sure if having a cam grind would've entailed some special valve seat modifying to the head which would, then, actually require removing the head to readjust all that. Don't really know anything about headwork in much detail, though.

Yeah, if nothing needs done in that way, shoot.....get a used stock cam from someone and call it a day. You could swap out easily in a day. Make that a fraction of a day.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Wow, thanks guys! lol....

I got behind today, due to being over there for a couple hours.....

I wish there was a way I could verify this, ya know? But, at this point, if it's just the cam, I'm not sure anything other than pulling the cover and digging in is going to tell me. I'm thinking of doing a compression test, first, just for the heck of it(Kind of curious if I show some strange anomaly in any particular cyl., ya know? Either way, I'll have to really think hard on how much I'd like to inspect. I mean, ... Think about it... having torn this thing half way down,....TWICE, lol, due to freak things that, well, just happen, .... would you want to just put in a cam and call it a day? Really would be hard to verify how well the valves are seated, etc. It's not ticking or anything, like a valve getting smashed, lol.

I'm pretty confident in Andy's skill, who helped me by setting the valves a while back.... So, unless one or more of them wasn't properly lapped.... etc., etc.,...well, then I guess it would make sense that it's very possibly the cam. I know, that's for another day.

I sure will keep up on it, here, Joe, ...ARE YOU KIDDING? lol. I will need help, big time! Well, I would like it, anyhow, lol.. how's that? lol .

Talk to you guys tomorrow or so...

PS> I finally got a good, straight Hitch Carrier! hahaha. 3rd time REALLY IS a charm! Hopefully that will apply to tearing down the engine again, haha.

Night, y'all!

Mark

yotafreakshow

i've got a cam lying around from a cratered engine...it might be scratched on the journals. i'll check it out, if you want it, let me know, it's yours. (or just get yourself a new mild grind from engnbldr or comp. what a crazy issue to track down. awesome job.

thook

I got your messages last night, Mark. I should have some time here in the next couple of days to call you back. Although, not sure how much more help I can be to you other than relief support.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hey guys,

Just spoke to Todd, Engnbldr-Ted's son. GREAT GUY! He spoke to me for 30 minutes, while eating his lunch, trying to help me make sense of all this. After going over everything I've mentioned here(and some more from before the build, etc.)..... He said,......

"I REALLY DOUBT it's the CAM... But it sounds ALMOST DEFINITELY like a mechanical, most likely valve issue. If they got any of those wrong, you will NEVER time this properly. Considering a cam is 25$ used to 75$ new from me or anyone else.... I would just replace it as you tear down the head, IF, (and I say 'IF' because EVERYTHING with these is 50/50 until you really get in and verify things) , you find it IS a valve.... which I will explain how to do, ....Because, then, you'll HAVE to pull the head to replace the valve and/guide, anyhow, if it's bent even slightly. If, by some weird chance, you find it's the CAM, which I'll explain, ...then you CAN MOST DEFINITELY replace it, safely, without pulling the head.(Simply place straps, securely, on the front and back of the head beyond the rockers, TIGHT AS A DRUM, ...then you can easily pull the rockers off and change out the cam without, 98% sure, causing any drama with the head gasket seal). The reason I said "I DOUBT" it's the CAM, Mark, is because, well.... they're doing the whole CAM on a machine that, if it had the wrong angle or rounded out one of the lifting lobes.... it would do it to ALL of them.... and THEN, the thing would just be almost impossible to drive. It would be missing like crazy in all the holes, all the time, and it would, I would think, as a CAM Issue, run with a much more steady miss......."pupurrrrrr-pupurrrrrr-pupurrrrrr-pupurrrrrr" With a valve, it's makes a lot more sense, because it's one of four on the intake side that is NOT ALWAYS sticking or hitting wrong on the rocker...AND, possibly, as you get warm, you would think that it would get tighter and worse, but actually, the guides might be freeing up as it warms, allowing it to be a lil more free, ...but then it still misses, because it's either bent or ground or otherwise done wrong or defective..... The strange thing is that, you said that when you drive down that hill, higher RPM's, in third,...it's not popping at all. However, AGAIN, that could be simply due to the fact that you're pushing around 4,000rpm's and it's not giving it any choice but to OPEN PROPERLY under that load. It still might be missing, but you'd just notice it less due to SO MUCH FASTER revolution and action going on in the train. That's why, when you have a dizzy issue, etc., ...it tends to act up much worse under load.... it just can't keep up with the TIGHT specifications requirements of 'repetition of timing/compression/ignition/combustion. I doubt it's your Ignition... seems to erratic and the fact that it HAULS BUTT just fine under load leans away from that. PLUS, they ran it on Propane(SUPER CLEAN AND HOT burning stuff, almost all the EFI bypassed, including injectors.....and it STILL missed just the same, all the while reading levels that led them to believe it was mechanical.... and to be honest, I have to agree. I can't say, as I said, that I agree with the CAM idea... Just seems like A REAL stretch. But, again, ANYTHING'S POSSIBLE with such an elusive gremlin like this. I'll bet he told you, when you asked, 'What should I do?'..... 'DRIVE IT, and leave it alone'...didn't he?" I said "YES! However, the other two mechanics, both respected by this Guru, said that they could not leave it alone. They would have to know what it was and get it right, especially after the money and time I've put into it.

He said he "wasn't exactly opposed to the Cold Air Intake(which is really hotter! lol)...and that he's seen them both, running fine, and actually being able to get air more easily into the same hole...it's not really a bad thing. Neither is the header. Just don't expect too much out of it. But, you can get a lil better breathing and flow out that can't hurt, as long as you don't go too big, either way, with a mostly stock motor(aside from the .30 over bore, etc." He basically said, "If you like it, keep it.... it's not going to cause this issue, PERIOD! This, I would, again, lean HIGH PERCENTAGE toward the valve train!"

So there you have it........ And he gave me some tips, GOOD ONES...

1.Check by pulling the plug wires. This can be very telling as well. It might still bog out on each one you remove, but YOU WILL DEFINITELY tell the difference as you pull off the one with the intermittent 'nothingness'. "OCCASIONALLY DEAD HOLE".

2. FIRST, check the compression, 3 times, maybe 4. You want to check for dramatic drops between each test, then average it out. YOU CAN see valve train issues in the compression, because the bottom end is REALLY unlikely causing your problems....so a drop in one hole, more than once especially, would tell you "IT'S #1!"... Neither is the EFI system(propane check) or ignition(all the other tests he did, whatever they were, to verify this) causing your problem... Back to VALVES.

3. "If you find that drop in one hole, and you decide to pull the cover. Inspect from the top for any valve stem being bent. Then, run a straight edge across the length of the head at the top of the valve stems... They should be pretty much DEAD ON STRAIGHT, across the board. If you find even 20,000ths off or so, on one of them... inspect the guide further, and it might even have snapped off the top of the valve guide."

GOTTA LOVE THAT FATHER AND SON TEAM, YOTATECH! Ted has helped me MORE THAN a handful of times, .... Todd? Great, personable guy with plenty of knowledge as well as personal time that he's shared with me more than once now, as well. He told me that if I did get they're head that many on here have gotten.... I wouldn't have to deck the block, etc. It will 'BOLT ON AND GO', period!

Very grateful for Todd's time, and I'm most definitely grateful, and I'm glad to share that, I SEE MUCH more clearly now why they came to that conclusion at the shop.

PS> Todd told me that while he's not worked on them, personally...he's seen MANY guys running propane in these with racing or basic operational applications. Interesting, eh? I guess it eliminates the injectors, etc....but it's NOT cheap, lol. Oh, and it's a TAD MORE EXPLOSIVE??? lol.

Well, whatcha guys think?????

PSS> TODD, thank you very much....and PLEASE, if I've misquoted you in any way, DONT' BEAT ME OVER THE HEAD WITH A CUSTOM CAMSHAFT?? lol. I think I got it right, but just a 'DISCLAIMER' to be safe, eh?

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

BUMP! LOL. ....

Anyone available in Torrance, CA area who wants to help inspect a head and valvetrain and cam....and possibly change it out? Good cooking and free beer involved........??? hahaha.

1990yota-pickup

i got a whole head setting in my garage.. its not warpped i checked with straight edge and some feeler gauges..

Duffdog

Hi there,

I had some of the same problems you do with a 89 22re 4runner I bought from some ukrainian guys. They had it for 2 years and could never figure out why it would randomly stall out only sometimes when it was accelerating and then just go nuts when the RPMs got up around 2k. I did much the same stuff as you did and then simply went back to basics and took off the valve cover and put my hand on the camshaft lobes. I found that the rear camshaft lobe was worn down about 3/16" on the tip. Next thing I did was run (not walk) to the dealer and buy a TRD stage 1 cam. After it was installed, there were absolutely no problems with my 22re.

Until, I started having alternator problems and finally just jumped the internal voltage regulator circuit in the fusebox to make the alternator function the same as a GM 1 wire alternator.

Then I sold the truck to some hot blonde college girl and... thats another story entirely.

If I was you, I would change the cam anyways. Its cheap and the TRD stage 1 is proven to make more power.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hey 90(it's 90 here right now! lol...) , how are ya man? Whatcha sayin there, buddy?..... Ready to ship it out? lol... I'm going to research a bit and I'll most definitely be trying to BE SURE of whatever is wrong before I tear it down, as best as possible... But as I said, ..'while I keep going over in my head(No pun intended, lol) "Could they be wrong though????", ...heheh... I guess at this point, having basically learned most of the workings of the 22re and shouting them out in my sleep.... I will only find out by digging in further, eh? Gonna need some input on how to triple-verify what exactly is wrong... but I'll start with the compression test. The 'pull the plug wires one at a time' thing did the same thing in every cyl..... wanting to stall, lol. Thanks for the heads up, 90! Good lookin out!

Same to you, duffdog! THANKS! I can always use and am ALWAYS grateful for any input. I have NO problem, obviously, sparing no expense to make this 'RIGHT, ONCE AND FOR ALL'... Clearly, seeing as I've taken my time and really tried to learn alot, use OEM when possible or necessary, and, well, HECK, .. no one can say I'm not trying, right? lol.

Yeah, this is a really tricky one, apparently. What I mean is, it's not setting off ANY of the regular or even mildly extensive "diagnoses". What would a TRD Cam run me? Would it be a better idea than an Engine builder CAM?

I almost want to just do one of their heads, and just be done with it. Maybe park my head and go through it, spare time, so that I have one for when it's ''time again'', lol. However, with everything new in there, bent or improperly lashed or whatever-valve situation, or NOT,... I think it would be best to just get in there and try to verify what's wrong with the valve-train/or-and/cam....???

Any input on that, guys? How to verify, 'without a doubt' on this?

PS> I've really stopped trying to read more into it than 'mechanical' at this point. I've exhaustively went over everything, dozens of times, including through the ECU and EFI system, most of the Ignition system... and, well, based on what they 'FOUND' or 'CAME to the conclusion of'.... Looks like I'm stuck with 'IT'S MECHANICAL!' lol. Don't get me wrong... I'LL BE GRATEFUL to just put this MYSTERY GREMLIN TO REST! Doesn't matter how much work it is... I'm ok with that part. I think it will take me longer than a couple days, since I don't seem to ever have more than a couple hours at a time, AND I WANT TO DO THIS FREAK'N RIGHT, period, end of story, YA KNOW? lol....so I think it might take me a lil while, but I guess if I have all the research done, and I can put aside a whole day...... Think I can knock it out in that one day? Also, ... been told I can pull the whole intake in one piece, then yoink the head.... Just seems to hard to get around a couple of those bolts(intake to head)... I'd prefer to do this considering I wouldn't have to completely tear down the intake, AGAIN, FOR THE THIRD TIME! lol.

hahaha

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

PS> ...Duffdog... don't you feel like setting up a fellow yotatech'r with a second set of eyes and thoughts? I'm in Palos Verdes, and I'LL COME TO YOU! lol. Just messing..... UNLESS? LOL.

Thanks for the input, seriously. I'm glad ALL OF THIS is here, ....this has really been a bear, and I think I like, more than anything, the thought that it might just help someone out who is REALLY AT THEIR WHITS END! eh? lol.

Thanks alot, guys... keep chiming in if you don't mind???

mfwimg82

sounds like a lot of work . you should be able to tell with a vacuum guage bad valve will give a jumpy reading.

our boy brian turns out is not the guy he claims to be . just a lot of talk