87 4Runner 22RE troubleshooting help needed
#21
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ok, I do not know if I can help or not.
some thing I was told a long time ago, always start with the basic. I would bet you have done this, but do it again. Reset everything to a base line, check the vacuum line go to the right places, are your connections good (wiring, pins), etc.
I am guessing you have a Toyota shop manual?
I looked up "rough idle or stalls" & "poor acceleration"
1)distributor - check air gap - check pickup coil - check governor advance
2) is there a choke system, have you checked it?
some thing I was told a long time ago, always start with the basic. I would bet you have done this, but do it again. Reset everything to a base line, check the vacuum line go to the right places, are your connections good (wiring, pins), etc.
I am guessing you have a Toyota shop manual?
I looked up "rough idle or stalls" & "poor acceleration"
1)distributor - check air gap - check pickup coil - check governor advance
2) is there a choke system, have you checked it?
#22
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I am just looking at the shop manual, trying to see if there is something
#23
Hey Flecker,
Well, the CSI and switch were the first things I checked, even before the build. Then, had the CSI done by RC Injectors, due to leaking. And, well, I've only replaced parts that were throwing codes, originally. Not sure what you mean by that, ....assuming you might not have read my build thread before, as I've been multi-metering and vacuum gauging and vacuum pumping and so on TO DEATH.
There is no smoke, AT ALL, no smell, pretty much AT ALL, either.
I'm also in Los Angeles, where believe it or not, Yard Parts like those that I would need to swap are HARDLY EVER AVAILABLE. When they are, I wind up in a situation like I did the other day, where I had to drive 6 hours round trip only to find out THEY WERE JUNK, or out and out the WRONG ONES. The AFM is coming from a guy on this site and, well, even when I took it to the dealer(know someone there), they could NOT find an AFM or TPS to swap it with that was specific to the 84-88 requirements that I would need. And, even if they did find it to be the problem, they'd add "throw it on the 'MACHINE' to the list for me for nothing, just to see if it was a lil lean or rich.
Thanks for the advice, Trecker....any other thoughts? Keep in mind, this is my primary vehicle and I don't have 5 months to fish through every yard in LA county for something that MIGHT be working. Sure, I can run a meter to it, like I have with almost every possible sensor and connector on this thing, including noids...but I need to get this solved, quickly, more than 'as cheaply as possible'......nonetheless, I fully agree with not just throwing parts and money at it, I do. I'm really trying here, man.
Well, the CSI and switch were the first things I checked, even before the build. Then, had the CSI done by RC Injectors, due to leaking. And, well, I've only replaced parts that were throwing codes, originally. Not sure what you mean by that, ....assuming you might not have read my build thread before, as I've been multi-metering and vacuum gauging and vacuum pumping and so on TO DEATH.
There is no smoke, AT ALL, no smell, pretty much AT ALL, either.
I'm also in Los Angeles, where believe it or not, Yard Parts like those that I would need to swap are HARDLY EVER AVAILABLE. When they are, I wind up in a situation like I did the other day, where I had to drive 6 hours round trip only to find out THEY WERE JUNK, or out and out the WRONG ONES. The AFM is coming from a guy on this site and, well, even when I took it to the dealer(know someone there), they could NOT find an AFM or TPS to swap it with that was specific to the 84-88 requirements that I would need. And, even if they did find it to be the problem, they'd add "throw it on the 'MACHINE' to the list for me for nothing, just to see if it was a lil lean or rich.
Thanks for the advice, Trecker....any other thoughts? Keep in mind, this is my primary vehicle and I don't have 5 months to fish through every yard in LA county for something that MIGHT be working. Sure, I can run a meter to it, like I have with almost every possible sensor and connector on this thing, including noids...but I need to get this solved, quickly, more than 'as cheaply as possible'......nonetheless, I fully agree with not just throwing parts and money at it, I do. I'm really trying here, man.
#24
Rough idle, stalling out a bit and hesitation and poor acceleration is also pointing many to EGR, etc. I'm trying to borrow a fuel pressure test kit for the FPRegulator and I'm going to also check the VSV and the other one in front.
Yeah, Coops, I have a couple manuals and about 300 links saved, lol. Thanks alot for the input so far, guys....ANYTHING helps, trust me, and I've checked everything people have suggested other than the FPR, due to not having a Fuel Pres. Test Kit. Don't really wanna spend the 50$ if i don't have to, ....thus, being patient with the homie, lol.
Yeah, Coops, I have a couple manuals and about 300 links saved, lol. Thanks alot for the input so far, guys....ANYTHING helps, trust me, and I've checked everything people have suggested other than the FPR, due to not having a Fuel Pres. Test Kit. Don't really wanna spend the 50$ if i don't have to, ....thus, being patient with the homie, lol.
#25
I checked the CSI time switch too, a while back, and my reading was ok. Also, the symptoms are pretty much the same, now, but I will check it out again according to manual.
Have you had a problem like this with the CSI? Where it's not blowing black smoke, yet running this iffy?
#28
Hey Yotaman, ...
Symptoms;
1. When cold, it ALMOST purrs..not perfect, but pretty dang close.
2. Still, it's ok when cold, but within a minute it goes into open loop(NOT SURE that has anything to do with it...but seems so), where it will idle down(within 5 seconds or so, not immediate)..sputter and seem to miss and, well, RUN LIKE CRAP, thereafter that first minute.
3. It doesn't stall, but that's probably because I have the idle-air screw out so much just to keep the idle up.
4. When running this way, if I back out the driveway and head up the street, it will BARELY want to move, until about 3000rpm's(sometimes, 2500) and then BAT out of hell, like a powerband. 2nd gear, same thing, then third, it's smoother, but still not all it should be. By the time I get around the block, park it, ....it seems to be purring(tiny miss but nothing SCARY).
5. It will purr when 'DRIVEN OUT OF THIS HICCUP', at idle, for about a minute(more if I'm lucky, like tonight...3 MIN! i know, i know, lol). But, eventually, the idle drops back down and it's the same old thing...AT IDLE! If I drive it at this point, it doesn't hesitate, etc.
Symptoms;
1. When cold, it ALMOST purrs..not perfect, but pretty dang close.
2. Still, it's ok when cold, but within a minute it goes into open loop(NOT SURE that has anything to do with it...but seems so), where it will idle down(within 5 seconds or so, not immediate)..sputter and seem to miss and, well, RUN LIKE CRAP, thereafter that first minute.
3. It doesn't stall, but that's probably because I have the idle-air screw out so much just to keep the idle up.
4. When running this way, if I back out the driveway and head up the street, it will BARELY want to move, until about 3000rpm's(sometimes, 2500) and then BAT out of hell, like a powerband. 2nd gear, same thing, then third, it's smoother, but still not all it should be. By the time I get around the block, park it, ....it seems to be purring(tiny miss but nothing SCARY).
5. It will purr when 'DRIVEN OUT OF THIS HICCUP', at idle, for about a minute(more if I'm lucky, like tonight...3 MIN! i know, i know, lol). But, eventually, the idle drops back down and it's the same old thing...AT IDLE! If I drive it at this point, it doesn't hesitate, etc.
Last edited by ChefYota4x4; 06-06-2010 at 10:09 PM.
#30
Registered User
If it was CSI time switch, then could it shoot excess fuel @idle, then while driving its not noticeable, then back @ idle its bogging sort of due to CSI being on still?
Someone chime in with CSI info!!!
Someone chime in with CSI info!!!
#31
Hey Joe,
Yeah, I suppose it could be, I'll check it out, again, tomorrow. Only thing is, even though it's worse now, it was still having a few issues before the build, and it passed smog without any trouble. TINY bit rich, but nothing crazy. When i walked in the injectors, I picked em up the next day and they said it was leaking a lil, but after repair it turned out "Excellent". I'll check the time switch again, also.
Trust me, guys, I've checked everything 20 times, lol.....but no problem, I don't mind checking till i get it!
Yotaman,
Yeah, I'll check on that again as well. Pretty sure my spark is HOT as fresh pancakes throughout the range, but I'll check it again, tomorrow.
Yeah, I suppose it could be, I'll check it out, again, tomorrow. Only thing is, even though it's worse now, it was still having a few issues before the build, and it passed smog without any trouble. TINY bit rich, but nothing crazy. When i walked in the injectors, I picked em up the next day and they said it was leaking a lil, but after repair it turned out "Excellent". I'll check the time switch again, also.
Trust me, guys, I've checked everything 20 times, lol.....but no problem, I don't mind checking till i get it!
Yotaman,
Yeah, I'll check on that again as well. Pretty sure my spark is HOT as fresh pancakes throughout the range, but I'll check it again, tomorrow.
#32
Registered User
Chef,
Boy, you've been busy! Had to catch up on your issues and progress this AM. Dang job keeps getting in the way!
The symptons you describe about the poor idle then "shooting off" at about 3000 rpms. This is very similiar to the symptons my 87 4Runner had when I purchased it. Checked everything like you have. On a whim, I pulled tht TPS. The movement of te TPS was very irradict, not smooth. Replaced the TPS and issue resolved.
Your values for resistance on the TPS look a little funny. Hate for you to throw new parts on, but my guess is the TPS.
My $0.02 worth....
Good luck.
Mark
Boy, you've been busy! Had to catch up on your issues and progress this AM. Dang job keeps getting in the way!
The symptons you describe about the poor idle then "shooting off" at about 3000 rpms. This is very similiar to the symptons my 87 4Runner had when I purchased it. Checked everything like you have. On a whim, I pulled tht TPS. The movement of te TPS was very irradict, not smooth. Replaced the TPS and issue resolved.
Your values for resistance on the TPS look a little funny. Hate for you to throw new parts on, but my guess is the TPS.
My $0.02 worth....
Good luck.
Mark
#33
Did you ever get the Other AFM? You said you OEM one had black RTV on top of the adjusting screw? Thats already a bad issue. That screw should never never never never never ever ever ever ever be messed with or you will never get it right again. You tested the AFM?... I don't have my OEM Yota 22re 6" think book around but if any of the tests were out of spec the AFM is consdiered bad.
On these trucks The AFM(Air Flow Meter) plays a huge part in engine performance. It determines about 80% of the tucks Air fuel ratio. If its not working right nothing on the truck will.
My opinion is to get another one i've had many probs with tampered AFM's. I'd replace it and see what we got. What is your timing set at? Codes?
On these trucks The AFM(Air Flow Meter) plays a huge part in engine performance. It determines about 80% of the tucks Air fuel ratio. If its not working right nothing on the truck will.
My opinion is to get another one i've had many probs with tampered AFM's. I'd replace it and see what we got. What is your timing set at? Codes?
#35
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Hey Chefyota4x4....
I see your in PV. I am out here working at BP in Carson until the begining of July, then home and back again after a few weeks. Would be happy to swing by and have a look see, I have owned several 22re's over the years and can't gaurantee anything but would help none the less.
Could be something simple a second set of eyes might help you see.
Let me know if your interested. If I am not here, you can try Pirate4x4.
I see your in PV. I am out here working at BP in Carson until the begining of July, then home and back again after a few weeks. Would be happy to swing by and have a look see, I have owned several 22re's over the years and can't gaurantee anything but would help none the less.
Could be something simple a second set of eyes might help you see.
Let me know if your interested. If I am not here, you can try Pirate4x4.
#36
Registered User
If the fuel pressure regulator is bad, then it would leak fuel past the internal diaphragm, usually. It works very simply. So, pull the vac line off and see there's any fuel in it. If not, it's probably fine. Fuel delivery could still be an issue and, to me, sounds like it very well might be still the issue. New fuel pump, yeah, but hopefully you've already ruled out the filter? Then, there's getting consistant voltage to the pump. You have the fuel delivery circuit in the airflow meter and the fuel pump relay. Say you're getting a decent idle.....maybe not perfect, but decent....then, you put the engine under load and not enough fuel is getting to the engine consistantly. Follow?
The other thing is if the fuel pressure up valve is working. On the rear of the valve cover, you should see it.
The CSI wouldn't cause this problem. But, if you want to eliminate as one, get the truck warm and unplug it. Wont' deliver any more fuel, if it is, and if it's leaking.....well....that still wouldn't be causing this. (Edit: I see you already have had it serviced. Doubt it's leaking.)
I'm voting fuel delivery.
The other thing is if the fuel pressure up valve is working. On the rear of the valve cover, you should see it.
The CSI wouldn't cause this problem. But, if you want to eliminate as one, get the truck warm and unplug it. Wont' deliver any more fuel, if it is, and if it's leaking.....well....that still wouldn't be causing this. (Edit: I see you already have had it serviced. Doubt it's leaking.)
I'm voting fuel delivery.
Last edited by thook; 07-27-2010 at 08:37 AM.
#37
Registered User
BTW, the ECU's in open loop when cold and heavy load. It goes into closed loop when warm, warm idle, and under light load/cruising conditions.
See autoshop101 technical articles if you'd like to learn more about that.
See autoshop101 technical articles if you'd like to learn more about that.
Last edited by thook; 07-27-2010 at 08:33 AM.
#38
Registered User
Also, remember if you're putting on new parts, that doesn't necessarily you're getting good voltage signals at the ECU, so the thing to do then is test at the ECU side. Wiring, connectors.........that sort of thing.
#39
THANKS, GUYS, ...that's what I'm talkin bout!!! OOH RAH! LOL
Chef,
Boy, you've been busy! Had to catch up on your issues and progress this AM. Dang job keeps getting in the way!
The symptons you describe about the poor idle then "shooting off" at about 3000 rpms. This is very similiar to the symptons my 87 4Runner had when I purchased it. Checked everything like you have. On a whim, I pulled tht TPS. The movement of te TPS was very irradict, not smooth. Replaced the TPS and issue resolved.
Your values for resistance on the TPS look a little funny. Hate for you to throw new parts on, but my guess is the TPS.
My $0.02 worth....
Good luck.
Mark
Boy, you've been busy! Had to catch up on your issues and progress this AM. Dang job keeps getting in the way!
The symptons you describe about the poor idle then "shooting off" at about 3000 rpms. This is very similiar to the symptons my 87 4Runner had when I purchased it. Checked everything like you have. On a whim, I pulled tht TPS. The movement of te TPS was very irradict, not smooth. Replaced the TPS and issue resolved.
Your values for resistance on the TPS look a little funny. Hate for you to throw new parts on, but my guess is the TPS.
My $0.02 worth....
Good luck.
Mark
Did you ever get the Other AFM? You said you OEM one had black RTV on top of the adjusting screw? Thats already a bad issue. That screw should never never never never never ever ever ever ever be messed with or you will never get it right again. You tested the AFM?... I don't have my OEM Yota 22re 6" think book around but if any of the tests were out of spec the AFM is consdiered bad.
On these trucks The AFM(Air Flow Meter) plays a huge part in engine performance. It determines about 80% of the tucks Air fuel ratio. If its not working right nothing on the truck will.
My opinion is to get another one i've had many probs with tampered AFM's. I'd replace it and see what we got. What is your timing set at? Codes?
On these trucks The AFM(Air Flow Meter) plays a huge part in engine performance. It determines about 80% of the tucks Air fuel ratio. If its not working right nothing on the truck will.
My opinion is to get another one i've had many probs with tampered AFM's. I'd replace it and see what we got. What is your timing set at? Codes?
Hey Chefyota4x4....
I see your in PV. I am out here working at BP in Carson until the begining of July, then home and back again after a few weeks. Would be happy to swing by and have a look see, I have owned several 22re's over the years and can't gaurantee anything but would help none the less.
Could be something simple a second set of eyes might help you see.
Let me know if your interested. If I am not here, you can try Pirate4x4.
I see your in PV. I am out here working at BP in Carson until the begining of July, then home and back again after a few weeks. Would be happy to swing by and have a look see, I have owned several 22re's over the years and can't gaurantee anything but would help none the less.
Could be something simple a second set of eyes might help you see.
Let me know if your interested. If I am not here, you can try Pirate4x4.
If the fuel pressure regulator is bad, then it would leak fuel past the internal diaphragm. It works very simply. So, pull the vac line off and see there's any fuel in it. If not, it's fine. Fuel delivery could still be an issue and, to me, sounds like it very well might be still the issue. New fuel pump, yeah, but hopefully you've already ruled out the filter? Then, there's getting consistant voltage to the pump. You have the fuel delivery circuit in the airflow meter and the fuel pump relay. Say you're getting a decent idle.....maybe not perfect, but decent....then, you put the engine under load and not enough fuel is getting to the engine consistantly. Follow?
I know what's been said about the adjustment screw in the AFM, but even if it's been tampered with you can set it back to where it was and get it right. Even then, if it's not right it's not going to pose the issue you're seeing. It'll either just run rich or lean. Adjusting all the way in is making it run richer. So, if you're not getting enough fuel it would help at idle, but not so much under load if you're still having fuel delivery issues.
The other thing is if the fuel pressure up valve is working. On the rear of the valve cover, you should see it.
The CSI wouldn't cause this problem. But, if you want to eliminate as one, get the truck warm and unplug it. Wont' deliver any more fuel, if it is, and if it's leaking.....well....that still wouldn't be causing this.
I'm voting fuel delivery.
I know what's been said about the adjustment screw in the AFM, but even if it's been tampered with you can set it back to where it was and get it right. Even then, if it's not right it's not going to pose the issue you're seeing. It'll either just run rich or lean. Adjusting all the way in is making it run richer. So, if you're not getting enough fuel it would help at idle, but not so much under load if you're still having fuel delivery issues.
The other thing is if the fuel pressure up valve is working. On the rear of the valve cover, you should see it.
The CSI wouldn't cause this problem. But, if you want to eliminate as one, get the truck warm and unplug it. Wont' deliver any more fuel, if it is, and if it's leaking.....well....that still wouldn't be causing this.
I'm voting fuel delivery.
THANKS SO MUCH, guys, ....new found hope! lol.
Thanks, as well, to the moderator who renamned my thread. I'M SO SORRY for labeling it with such a STUPID NAME, lol. Oh well, guess I'd just reached that point of 'AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH', when I finally decided to re-introduce my problems to the site, lol. Seriously, thanks, it's already reaping div's!
M.W.M., C.E.C. and WANNABE HOMECHANIC! LOL ON!
Last edited by ChefYota4x4; 06-07-2010 at 10:31 AM.
#40
Repost of Symptoms;
1. When cold, it ALMOST purrs..not perfect, but pretty dang close.
2. Still, it's ok when cold, but within a minute it goes into that loop(NOT SURE that has anything to do with it...but seems so), where it will idle down(takes about 5 seconds or so, not immediate)..sputter and seem to miss and, well, RUN LIKE CRAP, thereafter that first minute.
3. It doesn't stall, but that's probably because I have the idle-air screw out so much just to keep the idle up.
4. When running this way, if I back out the driveway and head up the street, it will BARELY want to move, until about 3000rpm's(sometimes, 2500) and then BAT out of hell, like a powerband. 2nd gear, same thing, then third, it's smoother, but still not all it should be. By the time I get around the block, park it, ....it seems to be purring(tiny miss but nothing SCARY).
5. It will purr when 'DRIVEN OUT OF THIS HICCUP', at idle, for about a minute(more if I'm lucky, like tonight...3 MIN! i know, i know, lol). But, eventually, the idle drops back down and it's the same old thing...AT IDLE! If I drive it at this point, it doesn't hesitate, etc., anymore, ...but it doesn't want to keep a smooth-750idle.
ONE IMPORTANT SYMPTOM(REACTION) TO MENTION; .........
Whenver it's doing this, whether warm or hot, if I kill the motor, restarting it, ...it will idle SMOOTH for about 5-10 seconds, MAX! Then, it eventually idles back down to WHATEVER THIS IS!
I've tried advancing it and screwing the Idle Adj. screw back in and then out to specs, .....NONE OF THIS HELPS! I have to find the postings on my build thread for the Coil Readings, etc., .....because as I remember, the only "ODD" ones I obtained were from the TPS and AFM....(had a strange one from the CSI Time switch, but I was just reading the meter wrong). Since then, I've retested things, ....A LOT! Just running out of ideas.
1. When cold, it ALMOST purrs..not perfect, but pretty dang close.
2. Still, it's ok when cold, but within a minute it goes into that loop(NOT SURE that has anything to do with it...but seems so), where it will idle down(takes about 5 seconds or so, not immediate)..sputter and seem to miss and, well, RUN LIKE CRAP, thereafter that first minute.
3. It doesn't stall, but that's probably because I have the idle-air screw out so much just to keep the idle up.
4. When running this way, if I back out the driveway and head up the street, it will BARELY want to move, until about 3000rpm's(sometimes, 2500) and then BAT out of hell, like a powerband. 2nd gear, same thing, then third, it's smoother, but still not all it should be. By the time I get around the block, park it, ....it seems to be purring(tiny miss but nothing SCARY).
5. It will purr when 'DRIVEN OUT OF THIS HICCUP', at idle, for about a minute(more if I'm lucky, like tonight...3 MIN! i know, i know, lol). But, eventually, the idle drops back down and it's the same old thing...AT IDLE! If I drive it at this point, it doesn't hesitate, etc., anymore, ...but it doesn't want to keep a smooth-750idle.
ONE IMPORTANT SYMPTOM(REACTION) TO MENTION; .........
Whenver it's doing this, whether warm or hot, if I kill the motor, restarting it, ...it will idle SMOOTH for about 5-10 seconds, MAX! Then, it eventually idles back down to WHATEVER THIS IS!
I've tried advancing it and screwing the Idle Adj. screw back in and then out to specs, .....NONE OF THIS HELPS! I have to find the postings on my build thread for the Coil Readings, etc., .....because as I remember, the only "ODD" ones I obtained were from the TPS and AFM....(had a strange one from the CSI Time switch, but I was just reading the meter wrong). Since then, I've retested things, ....A LOT! Just running out of ideas.