thook

'Nother quickie....

I read this looking for a diagram and thought I'd post to give you an idea of what you may dealing with on the O2 issue......

"When cold, the O2 sensor acts as a resistor until reaching operating temp. At operating temp, the sensor acts as a battery. For accurate signal output, it is essential that the O2 sensor is kept at high temp's."

So, what I'm getting at is that this may not be a case of the ECU "no" signal, just a faulty one......incorrect voltage. The diagram I've found so far is for a heated O2 unit, but the heater is to keep the sensor up to temp. On early 22re models, the O2 does not have a heater.....BUT! it is closer to the manifold and would therefore be heated quicker and for a longer duration than having it so far away as yours. This signal from the O2 (and closed loop operation) also relies on the THW signal.........coolant temp sensor. From what I understand so far, the early OBD systems do not have a code for the a faulty ECT circuit. I'm thinking code 21 may indicative of one, though. Not sure, yet.

Okay, more later.....I'm still reading. But, could you/would you please remind me, Chef. What is the status of you temp sensor?

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

THANKS, THOOK! Honest, I'm very grateful you're taking time to read on the 4th to help me resolve this! I know, I know...you're an INFO JUNKY, LIKE MYSELF, LOL! NONETHELESS....thanks!

I have to prep the Chateaubriand, Flank Steaks, Halibut and Cornish Hens for grillin, to go with the Grilled; Prosciutto wrapped asparagus, bacon wrapped and cream cheese filled Jalepeno's topped with spicy tangerine glazed prawns, Grilled Butternut Squash and CORN ON THE FREAKIN COB! lol. Doing some Grilled Sweet and Golden Yukon Taters smothered in roasted garlic and onion-kosher salt and fresh ground black pepper, too. Lemon Poppy Salad with Apples, Candied Pecans, Avo and Stilton on Butternut and Red leaf salad, to go with! BBabitL8r!

thook

Okay.....if you look on page 10 of the following link, you'll see the wiring diagram illustrating the diagnostic system and how it's wired to the ECU. You'll also see that sensor input has to go through the ECU microprocessor before it reaches the diagnostic port.........meaning if you're reading the O2 sensor at the diagnostic port and it's doing what it's suppose to do, then the ECU is reading it and getting a correct signal.......atleast at the time you ran the test. But, that raises a question for me. When did you run the test? When the motor was cold or hot?

http://autoshop101.com/forms/h27.pdf

thook

Narrowing in on the problem....

You only get the CEL when you hit the throttle. At this point, the IDL contacts (of the TPS) are off. The IDL contacts must be off (IOW, the throttle plate must be open and the TPS must indicated accordingly) to properly to test response from the O2 sensor at the appropriate diag. terminals....VF and E1, and Te1 and E1. VF means "voltage feedback". The VF circuit will not "emulate" the O2 signal (the switching back and forth you see on the meter) at idle....when IDL contacts are on. However, I've told you this, but the O2 is disconnected on my wife's 4rnr. The CEL comes on as soon as the vehicle is started and stays there! So, you are definitely getting a signal from the O2, there's just a fault in the circuit.

My posts are probably gonna seem disconnected and ramble, maybe even redundant, until I wrap my noggin' around what's going on here exactly, but bear with me. I'll eventually put all the pieces together and post something more concise, and hopefully accurate, to pinpoint your issue. So far, I'm inclined to believe the code 21 is meaning either 1) at the point your ECU is determining sensor data to begin going into closed loop mode, it's getting input that's incorrect or 2) it may be going into closed loop right away before the engines actually warm.....meaning maybe a fault with the coolant sensor. Just speculating and juggling ideas. No conclusions.

Later

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Brand new OEM Denso CTSensor.....but OF COURSE, the wiring could be post-toasty, lol. I'll have to figure out how to check it at the ECU. Maybe you've posted that already, just haven't had time to read up on those links, just yet.

I'ma have to work through at least 3:30, then might have a break, and I WILL be vigilant in following up WHATEVER tests or P>O>E's you point me toward, ok?

Thanks again, Thook!

thook

I was pretty sure you had a new ECT, but couldn't remember.

You're welcome, Chef. Remember to breath.....

thook

I don't have anymore time today. I'll be back, though......BEWARE OH MALICIOUS GREMLINS!!! Muahahahaha!

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hahahaha, (long sighhhhhhhhhh)...... Gremlins SUCK! LOL.

Actually, the day/night went very well, and NO gremlins showed up with attempts to sabotage my gig! lol. I actually just got back, 10 minutes ago. The Fireworks show went off late and they held off on dessert till 10, rather than EATING IT AT 8, LIKE I'D SUGGESTED! lol..... That's what happens when people party hardy, I suppose!

I'll get checking those links, asap-tomorrow, and once I've got some idea what I should check/try/etc., next, ....well, then THAT WILL BE GREAT! haha.

Thanks again, Thook....hope you had a nice evening!

Mark(aka; MY FEET ARE ON FREAKIN FIRE!oooooh) hahahaha.

thook

Chef.......I'm going to try and make some time to do some more concentrated reading on atleast the O2 issue. Thinking back (without reading everything again), have you had a smoke test run for vacuum leaks, yet?

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

No smoke test, ....yet. I've had trouble finding places that do it, as the one I used to know has moved to NC, lol. I have a guy asking around.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! ....Ok, I'm fine now, honest, hahahhaa. Jk, I'm not really tripping at all, Thook. Those moments have come and gone(and never really to the point of 'oh forget it!', hahaha) and now I'm just determined to get it right. My Zuk's are arriving today, and I'm trying to find someone to help me with that, just as a set of second eyes, ......and maybe who is good at shaving off Bump Stops, hahaha.

I appreciate your checking into this so much. I've read much of that link and now, what you've just posted recently about the 'going into closed loop immediately' possibility, etc. I need to read the one on the ECU(right?)....but just got on this morning and had to answer or delete like 400 emails! ahhhhhhh, lol...so far behind on a few things.

Let me know what you want me to try, ok? You think maybe the O2 is not getting hot enough, i got that, but yeah.....that is strange that it's coming on right away at WOT(well, 2000 or so, lol).

I also have about 250 Miles on it, now, and I wanted to know about the best oil to use and whether or not Non-Detergent(then add Zinc) is the way to go as the Machinist recommended(until about 1000 miles). I think the Zinc is supposed to help with the RV CAM...as it's just now beginning to break in with the rest of it(???) lol. I think Flecker mentioned just using what I always did, Castrol GTX(weight that's recommended by Manuf.) I have to call the machinist to see when/if he wants me to bring it in for the head bolt re-torquing. Most I've read do it at 500 miles. I think to keep warranty on lower end, etc., it has to be done by a certified shop.

The lil miss thing is something I seem to remember it having for quite some time, even before the build about 10k miles or so. Wasn't taking notes back then, so not exactlyyyyyyy sure, but give or take, ya know?

Back to work for a lil bit, thanks again,

Mark

thook

So far I have only have half educated ideas about what's going on with the CEL and why it comes right at that RPM. But, I do know that in order to check the closed loop status and operation of the O2, your meter must be connected to the VF and E1 terminals while the Te1 and E1 are jumped. Then, the IDL contacts must be off in the TPS....IOW, the throttle plate must be open and engine at 2500 rpms. Otherwise, with the IDL contacts on.....engine at IDL...the ECU will not go into closed loop and call for O2 signal to modify the fuel trim. As well, you won't get a reading on your meter illustrating the operation of the O2 while on the VF and other terminals.

So, once you hit the throttle (IDL contacts off....ECU verifying whether or not conditions are appropriate for closed or open loop operation), the CEL is coming on indicating a problem in the O2 circuit.......whether your motor is hot or cold, right?

I need to know when you ran the test if the motor was hot or cold, and if the throttle was open with the engine at 2500rpm's.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Ok, let me see......

The 'TEST' I performed, as prescribed by the Toyota ASE mechanic, was to place my positive prong of the multi-meter in the Ox terminal of the diagnostic port, then place the ground prong to the battery ground and secure it there. I then started it, cold, and don't remember seeing any fluctuation on the meter. And, to be honest, Thook, ....I can't remember, either, if, when FIRST STARTING IT COLD, I had the idle up to 2000-2500rpm. However, I think I remembered right off and brought up the idle to 2000+, where after a couple of minutes, it began to read between 300-600ohms every 2 second fluctuating.

I will have to test it again, I think(and apparently) to 1.) verify it's not showing a reading at higher rpms when cold, ....and 2.) for the "apparently", to verify I was doing it properly in the first place. lol.

If you could explain what you mean by 'jumped' on the TE1 and E1 terminals. If I'm reading you correctly, I need to have my VF and E1 terminals connected to the Multi-meter, as well as the TE1 and E1(which is already connected to the meter) jumped, as well. Then, start it, cold, hold it at 2500rpm and see if it's reading ANYTHING, is that right? If it is, and I'm reading you right, I have a problem that I hope you could explain again, lol..... And if it DOES NOT become readable until it actually warms up, then things are normal with the O2 and I need to find the cause of it's setting off the ECU?

Ok, sorry, I"m just confusing things, ..forgive me, ...Not my strong suit, electronics/diagrams, lol. REALLY, ...not at all! hahaha. However, I would think that, if my O2 code is coming up with the motor cold, as it hits higher RPM, ....something is really wrong, correct? I'm going to read what you said a few times, and letting it sink in, hopefully I'll start to understand it better, ok?

Sorry, I get a bit ADHD when electrical/electronics come into the picture, lol.

thook

You're okay, Chef. No need to apologize so much.....really. Otherwise, I'm going to start suggesting Stuart Smalley seminars....

I meant with the probes of your meter on VF (+) and E1 (-) and a jumper (insert paper clip) on Te1 and E1. So, the E1 terminals will be shared by the ground probe and the paper clip, atleast.

Like I said, so far I'm only spouting ideas on half educated guesses. I have no real conclusions on what's going on and how to procede, yet. You see, I'm motivated by three factors here:1) I have questions of my own on how the O2 system and closed loop operations works exactly....not only because of your vehicle, but mine 2) This Botsched (Bosch) sensor debate has my curiosity. I want to be able to come to some kind of factual data conclusions on why they may or may not work well for Toyotas other than by going on what I'm being told 3) Along the lines of Botsched sensors....I have on friend, atleast, that's running one without issue. Kind of an anomoly compared to the statistics. There's a number of details I have to put together in my head and it just takes finding the time for the required concentrated reading....which I'm good for. But, don't come to any conclusions for yourself just yet based on what I've posted so far. You can view those posts as simply "throwing the data out there" along the way. We'll nail it, though. Then, you and I will be "the masters of O2 operations"....hahahaha.

Okay....maybe not go that far, but we'll have an advantage....hehehe.

Later....tonight. Gotta go fix the fridge.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Thanks Thook,

I hear ya, ...... You'd like to know for the sake of knowing/verifying, as well as for practical purposes that could help you solve the great mystery of the '22RE's DON'T LIKE BOSCH O2 SENSORS......IS THAT SO?...AND IF SO, ....WHYYYYYYY?', LOL.

Yeah, I've been pretty busy, actually, the last couple days. Just making time to come on and maybe throw in on some threads in which I've tried to be useful......but no time, nor much direction, neither a thick leather glove to BACKHAND MY TRUCK WITH! hahahaha. I'm REALLY hoping to head to Upper Peppermint(Near the ridge where the Sequoias meet the High Sierras....IT'S INCREDIBLE, THOOK, trust me! lol) to meet up with a couple people and fish, camp, maybe do some shooting in a couple GREAT ranges up there. But, alas, that trek should be around the end of July, ....and I'm just not sure if I'll get this nailed before then, due to time restraints and, well, I'M STUMPED, like most people have become with my truck, lol.

I do notice something that I'd like to verify/figure out, in regards to fuel consumption. It seems like it's GUZZLING fuel! I believe I have about 1/3rd left of the tank....and I've gotten just over 100 miles out of it! I'm guessing around 15mpg, maybe less. I REALLY need to figure that out and verify how much I'm using...however, I'm a lil concerned with burning up valves, CAT, possibly the new O2 with 'da vapors', hahaha. So, preferably, I'd like to just figure out what's wrong, first, before running through another tank of fuel.

Since I"ve adjusted the timing, it seems to have less power off the line. I still need to adjust my clutch release linkage....so I'm not sure how much that has, if anything, to do with it. Mainly, because when I had the timing at around 12*btdc, ....it didn't seem to have as much problem off the line. However, when on the freeway, AT 5*, I'm sure you read, it got up and went just fine, getting me up to 85 fairly quickly, without much issue as it used to have before the build, header, Cold Air, maybe the mild-grind-RV cam, .....ahhhhhh, like I said before, I'm just stumped, Thook. Of course, ....that's not saying TOO much since I'm fairly new to the detailed workings of the 22re. Even then, however, I learn fast, and as I think Flecker would attest(I hope, lol), I'm fairly apt and have learned quite a bit fairly quickly. Not to mention, .....a couple Guru's and even the Dealer threw up their hands.

Not meaning to ramble..., and I'm not much of a whiner/complainer. I LOVE "pressing forward". I really do love a good challenge....ESPECIALLY when I'm helping someone else. Yet, this is MY ONLY vehicle and is supposed to be my daily driver, sooooooooo. lol. It's not a problem to drive my employers CRV, which I've done for years, to deal with 'work related' things, like visiting purveyors, etc. However, it's been more and more for personal use, and, while they don't really complain much, ...I, PERSONALLY, don't feel right about it as it's unprofessional and simply put, ...... embarrassing, hahaha.

Thanks, Thook, for sharing what you find, in advance. I'll be back on, today but as you said, "Tonight"....so I'm going to try and pull up the harness a lil bit so I can finally solder that wire(O2) on the harness side, slip over the shielded wire and then run it to the connector. IF I have time, lol. Do you think it's possible that it's just not getting hot enough? It's not THAT far back, and it should get plenty hot being only a few inches from the CAT, no? I still think something 'strange' is going on, considering it's throwing the O2 code right off the bat at any good push of RPM, ....and BTW, just to clear this up;

IT'S NOT ALWAYS at 2500 rpm, or even 2000rpm....at times, actually, it goes off, with engine cold, even as low as 1500 rpm. Most often, however, I have to get it to at least 2200 for it to set off. Seeing that I'm using more fuel(I think), is it possible that it's never really going OUT OF OPEN LOOP? ....Rather than being in closed loop right away?

Ahhhhh, anyway, I'm really at a loss. I can only think, otherwise, that maybe my ignitor, or an air gap at the limit, or coil, or SOMETHING is not providing enough-or proper timed-spark, which in turn is causing the air to need to be pushed up, to meet the unburned fuel(which it's never really doing, thus, the O2 Code). ORRRRR, ....for some reason, which I thought I'd verified, it's continuing to run unregulated fuel to the rail at all times(FPR or VSV or both orrrrrrrr, CSI running on?) BTW2, ...I've unplugged the CSI in front of Flecker, .....no change, even after 30 seconds of running when warmed up.

I'm tempted to put my old ECU back in, just for the heck of it, to see if I get any codes, any change, since having replace brand new OEM TPS and adjusting properly, AFTER the new ECU.

OH WELL, hahhahaaha.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Mr. PostLADY dropped these off just minutes ago. Boss said, "hey, there's a heavy box out here....you better come get it, it could be expensive!" hahahaha. "not really", I said, "but hey, who knows what kind of snakes might be lurking, hahaha".

I'll update asap on this, but I REALLY need to focus on the running portion. I can't imagine these coils taking me more than a few hours, ya know?

Philbert

iTrader: (2)

ZUK FTW!

if you have an angle grinder, TALL jack stands, and a bottle jack, you'll be done in no time

If you're tired of failing in your engine project, this is a nice "build me up" project that will make you feel like you're good at fixing up your truck!

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hey Phil!

Yeah, I DON'T have an 'angle grinder', I DO have a set of SERIOUS 'jack stands', and..........as long as no one has opened my rear, bed-kick panels, stealing my bottle jack....I should also be alright there! lol.

I can, most likely, borrow my neighbors angle grinder and possibly torch, and he seemed interested enough where he said, "I'll have to look at it, then I can tell you exactly what you'll need from me", ......which sometimes means, from him, "Sure, I'll help you!"...but is NOT a guarantee! lol

No, not feeling like a failure in the engine department....more so, HAVING NO TIME! hahaha. Seeing how 3 or more Guru's have been literally stumped by this, ...I have to say, I'M FEELING MORE CONCERNED than inept! hehehe.

Philbert

iTrader: (2)

Totally busting your chops on the ineptitude

Get a grinder - it's empowering how you can slice through STEEL. But be careful, as it will do the same to your hand even faster!

I completely forgot about the OEM bottle jack I have in the fender well....now I have two all of a sudden!

I got my craftsman for about $60 - it's 120 volt (passed on the compressor version as I wanted portability and full power when using it for long periods.

go get 'em!

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

I will, Phil! lol. Yeah, I knew you were joking, but at times, trust me, this thing has most DEFINITELY made me feel inept for a day or so, haha. I'll get it, and at least it will not KILL my kidneys on the parking lot bumps any more! DANG Cali is aggressive with the SAFETY BUMPS EVERYWHERE! lol

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Any ideas on the mileage thing, guys?

PS> Flecker, ....did you fall off the map? hahaha. Jk, ...but now I will be needing to do a new batch of those Chocolates for ya! hahaha.

Waiting for ideas, and I wound up with NO TIME to do anything today, as I had to work and then, tonight, we're going to RA Sushi for my youngest daughters 18th Bday! lol. BUT I'LL BE BACK TO CHECK TONIGHT, so let it fly on the random suggestions and innuendo! hahaha.