22rte dying...?
06-20-2010, 06:44 AM
#21
Registered User
the turbo may be going out,you might check the air intake for oil residue.the plugs could be black from running rich. if the compression check is good ,the turbo could have a internal oil leak and not making boost.
06-29-2010, 02:16 PM
#22
Registered User
Thread Starter
Update
Does your engine blow blue smoke after you accelerate and then back off on the accelerator? If it does then it's pulling oil down around the valve stems into the cylinders and you need valve seals. These can be changed with out removing the head. You need a valve spring compressor, proper fitting to screw into the cylinder for an air hose to connect to, of course an air compressor. The air in the cylinder keeps the valve in place, while you remove the valve spring locks and spring and replace the valve seal.
If you don't think that it's the valve seals then I would do some more investigative testing, before I tore it down. I'd do a dry compression check see what the results were and then do a wet compression check if my results were not what they should be. Here's how you do that:-
The dry and wet compression test is a standard test used to determine the condition of the pistons and rings, cylinder, valves and seats, and even the head gasket, and is carried out as follows:
1. Using an air line, blow away all dirt and debris from around the spark plugs.
2. Start the engine and allow it to warm up to operating temperature.
3. Remove all spark plugs and disable the high tension coil and the fuel pump.
4. Screw the compression tester into each cylinder in turn and crank the engine, making sure the throttle is kept fully open. Crank the engine for about four compression strokes and record the readings.
5. Check the readings. The lowest reading cylinder should not be less than 75% of the highest reading. Some manufacturers specify a minimum reading and any reading lower than that is unacceptable. You can check the vehicle service manual for these figures.
6. If all the readings are within specifications, there is no need to do the wet test but if there is variation between cylinders, then squirt about a tablespoon of lubricating oil into each cylinder and repeat the test. If the pressures increase appreciably and come up to the manufacturer's specifications, then you can be sure there is piston ring and/or cylinder and piston wear.
7. If after adding the oil, the pressure does not go up, your valves may not be seating properly and that could be for a variety of reasons. If there is no pressure rise in only one cylinder, it could be because of a blown head gasket.
If your engine tests within spec then I'd definitely look at the turbo as the problem. If it's the stock CT20, they are famous for cracking, beneath the exhaust housing. To check you need to remove the exhaust housing and check for cracks around the impeller housing. If yours doesn't have any cracks then you can buy a rebuild kit for it (seals and bushings, etc.) If your's is toast, I've got one, complete with manifold piping and heat shields that I'm not using on my rebuild. I've never taken the exhaust housing off of mine to verify that it's okay, but if you do end up needing one, I would definitely do that to make sure it is okay before I put it up for sale.
If you really want to know as much as possible about these engines, then go to:-
http://www.22rte-trucks.com/simplemachinesforum/
Talk to the guys on this site, the moderators have forgotten more about these engines then the rest of us will probably ever know!
By the way, if you decide to replace the rear main seal and not remove the engine or rebuild it, along with your new rear main seal, buy a crank sleeve, because if your rear main is leaking it's almost a given that the seal mating surface is scored.
Good Luck!
If you don't think that it's the valve seals then I would do some more investigative testing, before I tore it down. I'd do a dry compression check see what the results were and then do a wet compression check if my results were not what they should be. Here's how you do that:-
The dry and wet compression test is a standard test used to determine the condition of the pistons and rings, cylinder, valves and seats, and even the head gasket, and is carried out as follows:
1. Using an air line, blow away all dirt and debris from around the spark plugs.
2. Start the engine and allow it to warm up to operating temperature.
3. Remove all spark plugs and disable the high tension coil and the fuel pump.
4. Screw the compression tester into each cylinder in turn and crank the engine, making sure the throttle is kept fully open. Crank the engine for about four compression strokes and record the readings.
5. Check the readings. The lowest reading cylinder should not be less than 75% of the highest reading. Some manufacturers specify a minimum reading and any reading lower than that is unacceptable. You can check the vehicle service manual for these figures.
6. If all the readings are within specifications, there is no need to do the wet test but if there is variation between cylinders, then squirt about a tablespoon of lubricating oil into each cylinder and repeat the test. If the pressures increase appreciably and come up to the manufacturer's specifications, then you can be sure there is piston ring and/or cylinder and piston wear.
7. If after adding the oil, the pressure does not go up, your valves may not be seating properly and that could be for a variety of reasons. If there is no pressure rise in only one cylinder, it could be because of a blown head gasket.
If your engine tests within spec then I'd definitely look at the turbo as the problem. If it's the stock CT20, they are famous for cracking, beneath the exhaust housing. To check you need to remove the exhaust housing and check for cracks around the impeller housing. If yours doesn't have any cracks then you can buy a rebuild kit for it (seals and bushings, etc.) If your's is toast, I've got one, complete with manifold piping and heat shields that I'm not using on my rebuild. I've never taken the exhaust housing off of mine to verify that it's okay, but if you do end up needing one, I would definitely do that to make sure it is okay before I put it up for sale.
If you really want to know as much as possible about these engines, then go to:-
http://www.22rte-trucks.com/simplemachinesforum/
Talk to the guys on this site, the moderators have forgotten more about these engines then the rest of us will probably ever know!
By the way, if you decide to replace the rear main seal and not remove the engine or rebuild it, along with your new rear main seal, buy a crank sleeve, because if your rear main is leaking it's almost a given that the seal mating surface is scored.
Good Luck!
Update: Well I finally got er started after replacing the starter and all new leads from battery as well as the 80A in the main fuse box. I also installed a new rad and a couple of other misc. parts. Starts like a dream!
I spent some time driving it last night in an attempt to figure out when it appears to burn the most oil. Hadmatt54 - it seems to burn lots on start up - doesn't appear to burn much under acceleration - but after I let off the gas pedal - so if I am correct - you think this is valve seals? I sure hope so!
So with an extreme lack of time I doubt I'm going to get to this real soon - am I destroying the engine and risking further damage the more its driven like this - assuming the valve seals need done?
Cheers
07-01-2010, 10:07 AM
#23
Registered User
What you describe does sound like the valve seals. Is it going to hurt your engine? No, but it's going to foul your plugs a bit so your gas milage and over all performance will probably suffer some. If you can live with the puff of blue smoke when you start it and when ever you back off of the accelerator and step on it again, the fix can wait till you have time. With access to an air compressor, the proper fittings for the cylinder, a valve spring compressor and new seals it's only a 2-3 hour repair job. Too bad you were'nt on my coast we could fix her up in an afternoon! Depending on how bad it's smoking you will have to make sure that you keep the oil topped up.
07-04-2010, 05:01 PM
#25
Registered User
Thread Starter
What you describe does sound like the valve seals. Is it going to hurt your engine? No, but it's going to foul your plugs a bit so your gas milage and over all performance will probably suffer some. If you can live with the puff of blue smoke when you start it and when ever you back off of the accelerator and step on it again, the fix can wait till you have time. With access to an air compressor, the proper fittings for the cylinder, a valve spring compressor and new seals it's only a 2-3 hour repair job. Too bad you were'nt on my coast we could fix her up in an afternoon! Depending on how bad it's smoking you will have to make sure that you keep the oil topped up.
Hey thats good news i guess! Wish I still lived out EAst I'd take you up on your offer! I can easily live with the smoke and oil - probably try to tackle it next month after work dies off a little... drove it about 300k on logging roads for access to paddle this weekend with no problems... so far so good. Thanks for all the help.
07-04-2010, 05:04 PM
#26
Registered User
Thread Starter
I don't doubt that its not! I pulled the tube (technically speaking...) into the turbo fuel injection and it had some oil in it... probably not the right place for it. I still need a new PCV valve - but after two valve purchases I have yet to nail down the correct one... more searching is in order!
07-05-2010, 02:05 PM
#27
Registered User
I don't doubt that the seals in your turbo are no longer 100% and that they are indeed leaking, but any oil that is in the intake piping will be drawn into the engine during acceleration and boost conditions, so theoretically that oil should be burned whenever you step on the gas. So your truck should be smoking all the time if the leaking seals in your turbo were the cause of your problem. However, you are seeing your blue smoke after it's been shut off and when you back off on the throttle and then accelerate again
An internal combustion engine is a glorified air pump, at idle the throttle plate is closed the pressure on the outboard side of the plate is atmosphere (even in a turbo engine that is not under boost) and behind the throttle plate in the plenum there is a vacuum. The engine wants more air but can't get it because of the closed throttle plate. During acceleration the throttle plate opens, vacuum behind the throttle plate in the plenum decreases toward zero. As engine speed increases, so does your oil pressure, so there is lots of oil on the top of the engine. After acceleration, when you back of on the throttle, the plenum behind the throttle plate once again becomes an area of high vacuum, if your valve seals are weak this vacuum will draw any excess oil around the valve stem down the stem and behind the valve, when you accelerate again that oil gets burned and you see a puff of blue smoke. Also if you have weak valve seals oil will leak down the valve stem on it's own. When you shut your engine down this leaking oil will pool and lie on the back of the valve, when you start your engine this oil is burned and you see the puff of blue smoke.
As I said above I'm not saying that your turbo is not leaking some oil, but what you are seeing is not a result of blow by in your turbo seals.
An internal combustion engine is a glorified air pump, at idle the throttle plate is closed the pressure on the outboard side of the plate is atmosphere (even in a turbo engine that is not under boost) and behind the throttle plate in the plenum there is a vacuum. The engine wants more air but can't get it because of the closed throttle plate. During acceleration the throttle plate opens, vacuum behind the throttle plate in the plenum decreases toward zero. As engine speed increases, so does your oil pressure, so there is lots of oil on the top of the engine. After acceleration, when you back of on the throttle, the plenum behind the throttle plate once again becomes an area of high vacuum, if your valve seals are weak this vacuum will draw any excess oil around the valve stem down the stem and behind the valve, when you accelerate again that oil gets burned and you see a puff of blue smoke. Also if you have weak valve seals oil will leak down the valve stem on it's own. When you shut your engine down this leaking oil will pool and lie on the back of the valve, when you start your engine this oil is burned and you see the puff of blue smoke.
As I said above I'm not saying that your turbo is not leaking some oil, but what you are seeing is not a result of blow by in your turbo seals.
Last edited by Hadmatt54; 07-05-2010 at 02:09 PM.
07-05-2010, 06:02 PM
#28
Registered User
Thread Starter
valve seals
So I fix the valve seals - does this now place more stress on the bottom of the engine? I have to wonder if the 'rest' will blow with new seals? Is this a realistic concern?
07-05-2010, 06:39 PM
#29
Registered User
Replacing the seals will stop the oil burning problem, it won't affect much else. From your original post you said the PO did a rering job and new seals. So I assume that he put in a new set of rings and a gasket kit. If the crank, main and rod journals, the rods and the cylinder bores were all within spec. then a ring and regasket job would be all that was required to refresh your engine. I guess it all depends on how well the original engine was treated and whether it was maintained properly. I haven't heard of too many rebuilds on these that didn't have to be rebored, on my 22rte, the turbo head had a crack in it just back of the #1 cam journal and my block had to be rebored to 0.040", but yours may have been okay. If the gasket kit was a WalMart special and wasn't good quality, that might be the reason for your leaking rear main and this problem, but on the other hand the PO may have put a good quality kit in. I built a 300HP small block Ford a few years back, drove from Calgary to N.B. I used a high quality gasket set and after the 3000 mi. one way trip I had to put a set of valve seals in before I headed back to Alberta. Sometimes it's the luck of the draw! Your engine may outlast the truck or it could fly to pieces tomorrow, it's the chance you take when you buy a used vehicle, but what ever happens it won't be because of new valve seals.
As far as replacing the seals, some guys say that you can't replace these without installing a new head gasket, because you have to remove the rocker arm assembly and the head bolts, but there have been guys that have put a ratchet strap across the front and one across the back of the head, fastened to the frame on both sides of the engine to hold everything in place, while they replaced the seals and everything went back together with no problems. I think that I would use the ratchet straps, but after I removed the rocker arm assembiy I'd cut some spacers out of pipe and replace the head bolts and torque the head back down while I pressurized the cylinders to change the seals. Just a thought when you get around to it.
As far as replacing the seals, some guys say that you can't replace these without installing a new head gasket, because you have to remove the rocker arm assembly and the head bolts, but there have been guys that have put a ratchet strap across the front and one across the back of the head, fastened to the frame on both sides of the engine to hold everything in place, while they replaced the seals and everything went back together with no problems. I think that I would use the ratchet straps, but after I removed the rocker arm assembiy I'd cut some spacers out of pipe and replace the head bolts and torque the head back down while I pressurized the cylinders to change the seals. Just a thought when you get around to it.
Last edited by Hadmatt54; 07-05-2010 at 06:41 PM.
07-07-2010, 12:58 PM
#30
Registered User
Thread Starter
valve seals purchase
do you have a preferred source - hopefully in Canada for acquiring the valve seals etc. I have yet to find an internet dealer in Canada that actually has these parts...
07-07-2010, 02:10 PM
#31
Registered User
I'm close to the U.S. border and I buy most of my parts out of the US. 300+ million people compared to 30+ million people...that's where the deals are. Aftermarket they are under $2.00 apiece. Sealed Power, Rock, etc have pretty good reputations, but if you are concerned about aftermarket quality then go with OEM. Even for the oem listing they are under $15.00 US.(for 8), so going to your local Toyota dealer you will probably not pay more than $20.00 for a set.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
