FGZ,

Read the links. I saw the first post you linked, but didn't see the second link. Cool. Thanks for that. I also had in mind what the poster in the 2nd link had mentioned, which was that the cover was going to be moving slightly out a little further with the addition of gasket/rtv.

Speaking of gaskets, when I spoke to Tod at Engnbldr, he said was he does is lay down a small bead on the block, attach the gaskets, then another small bead on the top of the gaskets, then put the cover on.

Is that how you are doing it or are you doing it differently? I wonder if any/all methods (gasket only/rtv only/gasket + rtv) would all work? I haven't heard much about this.

 

I have the 4 piece kit from engnbldr, so I have new oil and water pump. In the new oil pump, is a new seal already installed. That's the seal that made that mark - looks like I'll use it as-is. I got a busy signal trying to reach Tod on Monday, so I emailed him. He said something to the effect of if the new oil seal rides on the groove it will most likely leak ,you can put it a little shallower to get it off that groove or use a speedy sleeve to fix the groove either should work fine. And when you look at the links I posted, at least one person has said that my groove isn't very groovy...ie I don't have very bad wear and shouldn't have a sealing problem no matter where the new one rides. I hope he's right, plus I have some mismatch which should keep me safe regardless.

 

The first link is where I got the idea to check the seal clearance, the second link is back to the original thread where the idea was posted plus my pictures of my results.

For the RTV, I'm going with a thin thin thin smear on both sides of the gasket. This is to keep it in place and fill in any gouges I can't see, and it will make me feel better than doing nothing. I have read the same as you, where folks can get away with doing it several ways. One guy just uses some High Tack to keep the gasket in place, so I don't think we can go too wrong as long as we clean properly and torque correctly.

When I put my new cover back on for the dry fit it applied clamping pressure to the overhanging part of the HG and I could see some oil seep out between the HG and head. I think I'll give the inside face of the HG, like where the cam sprocket is, a good acetone wipe plus RTV as I'm reassembling to try to help that old HG reseal. Still not that big of a deal, just something I noticed.

 

FGZ,

Ah, I didn't think about the oil seal already being installed - I haven't looked at the oil pump that closely (I've got the 4-piece kit as well). Have you noticed if the oil seal is backed all the way into its channel on the oil pump or if it has some room to move? I would assume it is installed all the way in, but if not that might also provide some room to play with. My pulley looks almost exactly like yours - a tiny little groove. I'll grab the old oil pump and the new one (with each respective seal installed) and maybe take some measurements. I'll definitely do the marker trick.

Although I took all the bolts out of the cover one at a time and transferred them over to the new cover, I'm going to reference this photo -->



...to just double check the bolt lengths. I don't know if the chain was done some time in the past (most likely) and if so, then I don't want to simply trust whoever did it last time that they got it right. I wonder - do you know if there is any way to tell if the chain is the original? I mean, obviously OEM would be present but that could have been used in a previous redo as well. My 4runner has 243k and I'm curious as to how long the chain has been in there for.

Also, as a reminder (for my sake too) don't forget the rtv on that one bolt, I think that goes into the oil pump? Haha, I'm not even sure which bolt it is...I just know if you don't use the rtv on that one it will leak.


Maybe it sounds bad, but that oil coming out of the head/headgasket interface in the front brings me some comfort haha. I'm sure I got some degreaser spray in there when I was cleaning it up. I was just thinking, like you, of getting plenty of acetone around there to clean things up and then using some compressed air to do a final clean out. I suppose it is not too critical - if that was a really sensitive area, they probably would have put more than just one bolt in front.

Are you going to apply rtv to the top of the H/G or the timing cover? Also, how do you think you're going to slide it in? I know the bosses on the block kinda limit how you can put it on I suppose. In my head (mind), I imagine it going up against the head as close to final position as possible, maybe ever so slightly at an angle, and then tapping the 1/8" forward or so to attach onto the bosses.

Did you suction out any of the coolant or are you getting any dripping down the block face? I'm thinking of getting one of those turkey baster things and bringing the level down enough so it doesn't drip onto the face of the block after I clean it. I tried to lower the level by soaking with rags and that was a fail

Was gonna work more on this yesterday but I had to do some cleaning and oil leak chasing on the '97. Might get to more of it tonight. If not tonight, then this weekend.

Good luck man! Git r done! And post up some pictures of yours if you can when you get a chance!

 

For any interested parties, here is what the head gasket underneath the timing cover looks like. I've never seen a picture of it so I thought I'd post one up -->

 

I'm making progress. Here is the TC and oil pan back on





BUT....



This is NOT how you should FIPG your oil pan - you're supposed to go INSIDE the bolt holes. My 12:30am logic got the best of me, my 8:30am logic slapped myself.



So already I need to drop the oil pan and fix that, at which time I will also fix this: the 2 rear-most bolts did not line up well at all and I had to pry around on it to get things to line up. I don't like prying on formed sheet metal, makes me think of warping which makes me think leaks.



This was a new aftermarket pan, made by Spectra. Perhaps I could have gotten better alignment by installing the bolts in a different order, but given how hard I had to pray it around, while all other bolts were loosened, I don't think so. I'm switching back to the stock pan, see if it installs easier. And I will FIPG it correctly, grrrr.


2 gasket hiccups: passenger TC cover gasket needed about 1/16" trimmed off the top, driver needed about the same trimmed off the bottom. DRY FIT YOUR GASKETS BEFORE INSTALL.

Passenger: (it lines up better than this pic makes it seem, but if I hadn't trimmed the very top it would have interfered with the HG)


Driver:



Back at it after I clean my old pan up and paint it a bit. That's why I paid $70 for the new pan - so I could have a professional paint job that would last longer. As of now I think I'll be sending this back if I can get a refund.

 

FGZ,

Dang man, that sucks! Sorry about the oil pan. At least both issues (the gasket sealer and the pan fit) are both limited to the same part/area.

Wise council on the dry fit.

Other than that is it looking good.

I think I am going to use the ultra grey as well, as it sounds like it does a lot better in tightening things up right away.

I'm gonna try to pick up some acetone tonight and scrub the front down.

 

That looks like grey in the pic, but it's the ultra black. I have seen that guys use both with success, so I went for the "extra oil resistance" or whatever. We'll see how it does. I can tell you the insides were still plenty wet after 12 hours sitting on the truck, though. Install was at 12am, removal was 12pm. Looking at how things smeared out gave me an idea of where I used too much/not enough, too.

I'm cleaning and painting the old pan today, if I can get that done I might be able to reinstall tonight or tomorrow.

 

Old oil pan went back on nicely. Still had to pry it over a little for 2 bolts, but not near as bad as the aftermarket. I tried different bolt pattern approach, too, maybe that helped.

Did that, got the AC bracket, power steering, alternator all mounted and put new o-rings on the distributor. I'm down to belts, hoses, and radiator. Can't wait to fire it up, really hoping I got it all right.

Better oil pannery:


Oil pan nudge:


Lots closer:

 

FGZ,

Wow, looking great! Yours is coming together nicely. My future brother-in-law and fellow off-roading enthusiast came over today and we went out to the garage and worked a bit on it. I feel we made some great progress, but while cleaning the block I bumped the headgasket and it now sits about an 1/8" away from the head bent down slightly - shoot! I'm hoping I didn't totally jack it up. I mean, you can take your finger and just push it up against the underneath of the block, but man headgaskets scare me lol.

The issue in question:



D'oh!!

I'm just hoping I didn't put a kink in it or something stupid. I guess we'll see when it is all together and has oil in it! Still...

But apart from that, everything went great! Here is the progress -










Test fitting gaskets (thanks FGZ) -



Test fitting cover -



So I decided to use a little blue thread locker on the guides just for extra insurance. I don't think anything is coming off, but I have a little peace of mind about it.

I'm hoping to soon have the gaskets on and then the cover.

I tested my pulley wear spot and I think I'm fine.

 

Get some RTV around the inside of that gasket and it will be fine I'd think. That area staying in tact is just bonus, what we REALLY don't want is the block portion getting out of sorts. I bet you're fine.

 

Hmm, well I'm finding pictures of other people's work that has a gap and even worse than mine -











Hmm...

 

I wish I would have just cut that part off of my new headgasket. I bent it when fooling around under there and it made it a paon to get the timing cover sealed up top. Im hoping to finish mine up today and then ill find out if it sealed good enough.

 

Did you get a leak up there? Mine is very in tact but I think I'm getting a leak up there. I tried to RTV the corners and smear some on the HG too.


I got everything finished this afternoon but didn't get to run it much before I had to head out for a hot date for dinner. I tried to prime it with starter only for a while, but I didn't see the oil pressure gauge move. So I plugged the coil back in and it started right up, oil pressure came on up and she purred nice. It ran for 5+ minutes while I checked the timing and topped off coolant. And then I saw the puddle of fresh oil starting. Ugh.

I think it's coming from higher than the front main seal, so I'm going to figure out a way to take a closer look. I think I'll take off the fan shroud, fan, power steering and AC belts. Then I can let it run for a little bit (watching the temp) while I take a look at everything. I think I'm getting leakage between the head and timing cover on the driver's side. If I can confirm where it is coming from, I can at least figure out where to go from there. Front main seal isn't the best option but at least it's a straightforward fix. A HG/TC leak is kinda tricky - either try band-aids from inside the valve cover or redo the entire TC install. Maybe I'll at least be faster at it this time. And if I can see where it comes from and confirm that it's not leaking A LOT then at least I can use the truck for a while.

 

Dude that sucks I'm sorry to hear it

I hope it will be easier than pulling the timing cover off.

I just got an email about an hour ago from Tod at Engnbldr - I had asked about my H/G and he said it didn't look too bad but just to be sure, he would rtv the area between the H/G and the head. I'm going to have to get a little creative to reach the very crevice of that gap - where the H/G meets the block since there is hardly any space in there. To be sure, I might just have to dump rtv in that area and then let it smash out and wipe it away on the inside and outside. We'll see. The surface between the headgasket and head was surprisingly dirty, so maybe it is a good thing I have to address it.

FGZ is your leak coming from the H/G and timing cover, or the H/G and head? I suppose you may not know yet.

For those that cut off that front part of the head gasket and used something else in its place, I'm curious to know how you did it without cutting through and scoring the underneath of the head, which to me I would think would also create a leak issue. Is the head-gasket metal? Or is just a paper-ish kind of thing that looks metallic? I'm not willing to bend/break/rip it to find out

I'm hoping it is something really simple for you man.

Keep us updated.

 

FYI I saw this post and thought it was interesting. It may pertain to both our situations -

"at work ive done close to 100 ( tech for 10 yrs ) , 22r -re and 20r timing chains and covers. i have oly had to cut one head gasket ( the owner did the cover 3 times then gave up due to leaks )

i always change the oil due to water, and i stuff the pan with rags to keep the debrie out. i pry the head gasket down a little, ill add a small amount of spay sealant to the top of the gasket and a good silicone to the bottom - and tap her in with a light mallet. ive only had a few that leaked that i had to redo"

 

I wonder what spray sealant he used on the top of the HG. Squeezing some RTV in, letting it smoosh out, and wiping up the excess should do the same I would think.

I already have a new TC gasket set in case I have to get into it again. And I'm plotting ways to take the whole power steering pump bracket out of the way while it's running so I can target the leak location.

Are we supposed to RTV seal up the infamous hidden bolt? It just occurred to me that it's sitting under a pool of oil and I did nothing (other than leave the HG in place) to seal that spot up. And since I never broke through on TOP of the HG, I certainly didn't get any RTV up there. My HG was already weeping from that area, so I'm betting that's my spot. But I'm still hoping something simple like half-moons, which I also have new ones to put in.

 

So, wait, where was your h/g leaking from originally? The top (head/HG) or bottom (HG/Timing cover)?

I think I'm going to try the spray stuff (Maybe Permatex copper spray?) and just try to get a really good seal between the head gasket and head. I don't think I kinked it or anything, but I at least want to try this before I cut the front of the H/G off.

As far as the top of the bolt, I haven't read anything about sealing up that top bolt, but it does stand to reason that oil may weep past the bolt head and down into the hole of the H/G there in front. Maybe that is why mine was so dirty in there - when the seal is broken, that oil just kinda runs everywhere. However, if the H/G seal is good, I think that keeps it from coming out and being an issue.

I can't really decide if it was a good thing or a bad thing that the H/G separated just a bit

 

I don't know if it was leaking between the HG and head or between the HG/TC, but it had clearly been seeping just based on the grease build-up. I would guess that leakage would be between head and HG because of gravity and all that. So IMO it's a good thing yours separated, now you can get some sealant in there while you reassemble.

My leakage wasn't even major enough for me to notice until this project, but if I had paid more attention, I would have bent the HG down, cleaned, and RTV'd.

The driver side had a bad-enough leak that it coated the PS pump and alt within the last 4 months (when I bought the truck). This leak, I think, was due to a rock hard distributor o-ring, which I paid my nice $17 at the dealer to replace.

I picked up some spray stuff by Permatex today, just in case it comes in handy. Just says "engine sealer" or something generic like that. If I have to take the TC off again I'm using liberal RTV, with excess clean up.

The HG surrounds that bolt, as seen in some of your earlier pictures. So the HG should keep the bolt from leaking. I'm adding some RTV to it if I get back in there, though. Wish I already did it.


I only had about an hour this afternoon, I kinda needed to spend more time with the 3.5 yr old who is now asking if we can work on the truck "tomorrow" so we can do something more fun today. I used my time working toward a best oil leak vantage point - no fan trying to maim me while I look around while the engine is running.

If you take the fan off, the water pump studs bottom out before you can mount the pulley, so I added some spacers so I could delete the fan:



Now I'm going after the whole power steering area. I took it out as a whole unit last time, and liked it, so I'm doing that again, which means I have to find my way to TDC and pull the distributor to get it out of the way. Once the PS is out of the way and not resting on the manifold, it's go time to fire it up and look for oil. I have a shred of hope that it's just the front half-moon rubber thing, because I can see some oil under there. Let's hope that's all it is...

 

I had no time tonight to work on mine, but major cleaning will be in order first. I was pretty surprised at how dirty it was between the head and headgasket.

Hopefully any leak will be easy to find and a super easy fix. Are you using RTV under the half moons? Also (just a random question) do you remember what your oil pump bolt length was (the RTV'd bolt that could jack up the tension if you use the wrong one?) I'm just looking for confirmation on length. I think I remember mine was 1 9/16"

In any case, go enjoy your time with the 3.5 yr old I have a 2.5 yr old that keeps me busy, but doting