Hi all

I have a 87 4runner, 325k, recently rebuilt engine.

I took it for a long drive today, and after 3 hours, I got a strange "fluttering sound" and big loss of power. I was in the mountains (though actually not so high), so I thought maybe the timing was off. I got out and moved it around but it did not seem to fix the issue. I was actually worried about making it out of the mountains to be honest.

The symptoms are as follows: when accelerating and especially at low RPS and especially when going uphill, I get this "flutter" and a big loss of power. I will then press the gas, pretty much flooring the pedal, the RPMs will very slowly rise, and then all of a sudden around 2.5/3k it will "switch modes", get a big power boost, and go to your regular 22re whine. Though sometimes it will randomly switch back to the fluttering for a minute and then back to being OK. Even when in the "OK" mode, it feels weird pushing 4000 rpm, like its misfiring or missing beats or something (I run 33" tires, so uphill I'm often going in 3rd at 4k)

Now I'm in town and in low gear and low RPMs it's running terribly, sounds like its about to stall. Also the idle RPMs are low, ~500, and very rough. When I fiddled with the timing, it did raise the idle RPMs, but like I said, it didn't seem to fix the issue once I started driving.

BTW, the truck has a new fuel filter. I checked and did not see any vacuum lines missing. I'm thinking this could be air flow meter? Maybe exhaust leak? (but then why intermittent?)

Any help really appreciated!

 

verify correct fuel pressure. the symptoms occur with low pressure.

 

Sounds more like the timing is off. If nothing else, that's a lot easier (and cheaper) to check than fuel pressure, so I would run my checks in that order.

 

it's all relative. i have a permanent liquid-filled fuel pressure gauge installed at the CSI. thus, it costs nothing, and takes only seconds to verify at any moment. unlike checking timing.

unless the distributer has been adjusted, or is loose, there is no reason for the timing to change. perhaps more background on the OPs recent issue is needed? edit, obviously, the distributer/timing now needs to be checked, but prior to fiddling with it, was it loose (ie, the hesitation happened before that)?

 

Which I think you will agree is not a common installation (I have a schraeder valve fitted, which I think is also unusual.) For everyone else, checking fuel pressure is both expensive (the gauge and fittings) and time consuming (installing the fittings). But everyone has (or should have - $20) a timing light.

Yeah, the ignition timing and the fuel pressure "shouldn't" change unless something has been fiddled with, and yet they both do change and cause problems.

 

Thanks for the feedback guys.

I'm googling how to test the fuel pressure. Seems more involved than I thought. Can I buy one of these and put it in my cold start injector? Would a regular compression tester pressure gauge then attach this to this, or do I need another pressure gauge? Is there a quick way to narrow down the problem without having to buy parts?

I know that the timing shouldn't just go weird by itself. The thing is I've wanted to adjust the timing for a while. I live at >7000 feet, so (given experience w. another 22re) regular timing doesn't work well here, I have to advance (however, it also makes it difficult to get right, cause i can't just go by the manual and set to 5 degrees). The engine was rebuilt at around 5k, so I've been thinking for a while I should adjust a bit, because the truck seems really sluggish going up hills etc. (but then again, its a 22re with 33" tires, so...) My first thought was to twiddle w. timing because I was in Colorado and at about 8k. But like I said it didn't seem to fix the issue. I've also gone up to 10-11k before without having this fluttering happen.

 

that is incorrect. if the pump is failing, or the FPR is failed/ing, or the injectors are stuck open, the pressure will change without fiddling with it.

also, adding the pressure gauge permanently costs from $30-45. not cost-prohibitive.

 

for the gauge, search RAD4runner's build thread in the build sub-forum. there's another thread with dicussion about fuel issues and gauge installation, along with my long battle getting a fuel pump to last more than 700 miles (i went through 8 or 9 pumps in about two years). this is the thread - https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...pressure+gauge. and this is my post - https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...l#post52275581
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...l#post52298043

ymmv

 

i drove my '87 4r across the southwest US, from the east coast and back, at high altitude locations, 10k+, never adjusted the timing from standard, and had no running issues. put 8500 miles on it in july 2016. zero issues. so base timing should allow your efi to run properly.

 

The "product details" doesn't give the size, but my guess from eyeballing it is that it is too big to fit the CSI. Instead, you can pick up one of these: The fitting in that kit replaces the banjo bolt near the Fuel pressure regulator.

I don't know of any reasonable way to connect a compression gauge to a fuel-schrader, but i suppose it could be possible to fab up some sort of adaptor. Which would probably cost more than the regular gauge.

Or, you could try to replicate WallyToo's permanent installation. I don't know where he got his fittings, but I'm sure he'd share that with you. Of course, you can't use the gauge on other vehicles (or sell the gauge on Craigslist.) Your choice.

 

Ahh, ok, I thought the Akron didn't fit out of the box for some reason. I might try that.

I realized I was earlier fiddling with my timing without jumping T and E1. Is that quite bad? I now jumpered it but getting similar results. BTW, the idle does drop a bit and check engine blinks when jumpered... Which I guess is a good sign for the TPS.

The idle is quite rough even at 750-1000 rpm.

I took a video btw, you can clearly hear the fluttering upon acceleration. Sorry for the shakiness. https://goo.gl/photos/4HGq9AAPELHBoeaG7

 

to adjust timing correctly, as you surmise, the T and E1 ports need to be jumpered, which makes the ignition enter base timing mode. spec should be 5*.

 

Just as a follow-up to this --- I believe this is due to a loose connection to the fuel injector on cylinder 1.

I had a feeling one of the cylinders might not be firing. I took off the heat shield over the exhaust manifold and dripped water and saw that the exhaust for cylinder 1 was much cooler than the others. The was spark there. This led me to a mess of tape and zip ties that held the connector to the first fuel injector. The rough idle goes away if I fiddled around with the wiring.

I am going to splice in a new EV1-type connector and hope for the best.

 

Rewiring the fuel injector connector fixed the problem. Now onto other issues

 

What was your source for the connector? I'm going to assume you bought one with "pigtails" and crimped it in. There's a lot of discussion about this, so your contribution would be helpful. (Me: I bought the connector bodies and pins http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Nippon-Den...-/400824432983, and crimped the existing wires to the new pins.)

 

right, except your later model uses a better stock connector design than the f$&king garbage design used for the connectors in an '87 22re, which require two hands, a pick or small screwdriver to pry the wire clip, and cannot be removed with the upper plenum in place. aftermarket connectors solve this, offer two-finger release, and can be removed or installed with the plenum in place.

the picture is of the aftermarket connector i installed. it is much, much, much, much, much, much, much better than the stock POS.

 

I bought this 4 pack of EV1 connectors with pigtails:
https://webcache.googleusercontent.c...&ct=clnk&gl=us
They seem quite solid and hold on tight. I used heat shrink butt connectors to attach the connector (also off Amazon), then wrapped the whole thing with a few layers of electrical tape.

I was lucky that the issue was on cylinder 1. I removed the air intake duct going into the throttle body and the TPS connector and then had good access. The other injectors seem very hard to reach without removing the plenum but I did not try. BTW, the existing connector was largely shattered and barely held on with a ziptie, so removing it was no problem at all.

Let me know if I can help w. any more info.

 

Thx.

But I'm going to guess that your other connectors are only slightly better. I got by for years with zip-ties backing up my connectors. Then I decided that was just a little too red-neck for me. You may end up with another connector failing ... soon.

 

@scope103 Yeah you are totally right. I did get a 4 pack of connectors and on my list, for when I have a bit of extra time, is to remove the upper intake and redo all them properly.