Cause of Roll/sway at highway speeds?
10-04-2013, 08:56 PM
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found this, thought it may be helpful
-----------_----
What was described in the initial post is a rear end wobble...not a lurch, not a drift, not a pull and not a vibration. However, as systems go, all could be ... or not be part of the resulting root cause. Not sure at all about the leaking coolant reply that came out of left field...certainly not anything I would consider based on my 50 years of wrenching. In my opinion, the pan-hard bar reply is dead on, but.......<br />
<br />
The death wobble. Comes in two flavors...front and rear. Both can be caused by several problems that result in the same symptom, but is mostly a symptom of rigid axle suspension designs that are loose.<br />
<br />
Out of necessity, I've been following this symptom on several boards now for almost two years and it seems very few real answers are out there. Lots of guessing tho. My one 4Runner was used in my business for 5 years towing trailers near the upper limit of the truck's design. Subsequently, the wobble showed up and got worse. And then worse. A death wobble.<br />
<br />
Here's my take on getting to the real, no guesswork needed, solution: First put the truck in the air and inspect everything in the suspension with a very good, bright flashlight. Look for leaks in shocks (replace them in pairs), crushed or split bushings (replace), broken stab link ends (replace them in pairs with urethane bushings also), broken springs (duh). Check for broken mounts. Find a good frame shop with welder. Check tie rods for play (replace). Check wheel bearings for play (they don't always groan when bad). Check your ball joints with a pry bar the correct way now that the truck is up in the air. Uppers and lowers. Replace with OE or Moog.<br />
<br />
If your shocks are more than 60K miles old, replace them unless you've only driven on smooth highways at highway speeds and don't brake hard or accelerate hard. They may last another 20K. Naturally, fix any other problems that you discover from the visual like rear heater coolant leaks.<br />
<br />
If you have discovered more than one problem during this first inspection, fix them all at once. After that, only do one fix at a time. Plan on spending both money and time whether you do this yourself or direct your mechanic on what you want them to do and how you want them to do it.<br />
<br />
Now that you've taken care of the obvious, go for a ride. If there's vibration you have to locate it. If it's in your seat, or your hands only, then move the front wheels to the rear and the rears to the front. If the vibration moved, it's in your wheels. Get them balanced with a road force balancer.<br />
<br />
If no change when you move the wheels, then check your drive-line for bad u-joints and have it rebalanced by a reputable shop. However, a bad drive-line will not create a death wobble and you will usually always feel it in your seat only.<br />
<br />
Now that everything else is taken care of, down to the death wobble. In my experience, a front wobble is rare in any Toyota and I'd eliminate the rear first. Note that since no one, and I mean no one is making poly bushings for the rear of a third gen 4Runner, this can get ugly. Pull the pan-hard bar (lateral track bar). Inspect the bushings at both ends for distortion (an area of crush parallel to the bar itself is common), as well as dry rot and excessive cracking. Any of these....replace the bar. ($200) If you are handy, you might be able to take a universal poly bushing from energy suspension, daystar etc and trim to fit on a lathe. Mine had high hat rubber bushings from the factory, so washers were necessary to shim the bar correctly since no two piece high hats were out there when I looked. Replace the bolts with new, no matter what. The bolts take a beating, they wear and get 'loose'. If you have 1/32 inch play at one end, you have it at the other also and it's cumulative in effect. The wobble should disappear on the next test drive.<br />
<br />
IF not, then it's on to the lower control arms! 4Runners that do a lot of towing will show a symptom upon acceleration and deceleration where the front of the truck seems to 'steer' in one direction (to the right when accelerating) and then the opposite when letting off the gas. Once they hit 200k miles, the same. Heavy acceleration or supercharger abuse....control arm issues. The axle is moving forward and rearward on the drive side which means...Lower control arm bushings are shot. Like the bar, no one makes a Gen 3 urethane replacement. Toyota has the rubber OE, part number 48702-35070. Most parts guys will tell you they don't exist...or that they are only for one end. Not true and not true. Toyota OE control arms are anywhere from $137 to list price ($212) each. This is what they try to sell you. Ouch. Careful if you go to your local pick-a-part because you most likely get the same or worse condition. Many yards move their wrecks with forklifts and the lower arms take the hit. In my opinion, you may only have to replace the bushings on the dog bone that attaches to the axle. Replace both and test drive. If I'm wrong, replace the other two after the test drive fails. You might save a few bucks. Replacing the bushings is a shop job. I mean, you need a really good, 20 ton minimum press and adapters that fit what you're trying to accomplish. The bushings are 44 millimeters in diameter and you need something that will press that outer shell/ring without damaging the center that projects out from the bushing. I used an old motorcycle piston turned on a lathe and the center drilled out to fit.<br />
<br />
These lower control arms are mostly to keep the axle perpendicular to the center line of the frame, whereas the pan-hard is to keep the axle centered left to right under the frame. If there's enough slop in these lower arms, the axle wanders. The upper arms are for resistance to the rotation forces that can cause the axle to twist forward or backward. These will be the last to go since this force is minimal. But they do go.<br />
<br />
If you have done all of the above and still have the wobble you either missed something, or you have a broken frame or component mount (you missed something). Time for a new truck?
-----------_----
What was described in the initial post is a rear end wobble...not a lurch, not a drift, not a pull and not a vibration. However, as systems go, all could be ... or not be part of the resulting root cause. Not sure at all about the leaking coolant reply that came out of left field...certainly not anything I would consider based on my 50 years of wrenching. In my opinion, the pan-hard bar reply is dead on, but.......<br />
<br />
The death wobble. Comes in two flavors...front and rear. Both can be caused by several problems that result in the same symptom, but is mostly a symptom of rigid axle suspension designs that are loose.<br />
<br />
Out of necessity, I've been following this symptom on several boards now for almost two years and it seems very few real answers are out there. Lots of guessing tho. My one 4Runner was used in my business for 5 years towing trailers near the upper limit of the truck's design. Subsequently, the wobble showed up and got worse. And then worse. A death wobble.<br />
<br />
Here's my take on getting to the real, no guesswork needed, solution: First put the truck in the air and inspect everything in the suspension with a very good, bright flashlight. Look for leaks in shocks (replace them in pairs), crushed or split bushings (replace), broken stab link ends (replace them in pairs with urethane bushings also), broken springs (duh). Check for broken mounts. Find a good frame shop with welder. Check tie rods for play (replace). Check wheel bearings for play (they don't always groan when bad). Check your ball joints with a pry bar the correct way now that the truck is up in the air. Uppers and lowers. Replace with OE or Moog.<br />
<br />
If your shocks are more than 60K miles old, replace them unless you've only driven on smooth highways at highway speeds and don't brake hard or accelerate hard. They may last another 20K. Naturally, fix any other problems that you discover from the visual like rear heater coolant leaks.<br />
<br />
If you have discovered more than one problem during this first inspection, fix them all at once. After that, only do one fix at a time. Plan on spending both money and time whether you do this yourself or direct your mechanic on what you want them to do and how you want them to do it.<br />
<br />
Now that you've taken care of the obvious, go for a ride. If there's vibration you have to locate it. If it's in your seat, or your hands only, then move the front wheels to the rear and the rears to the front. If the vibration moved, it's in your wheels. Get them balanced with a road force balancer.<br />
<br />
If no change when you move the wheels, then check your drive-line for bad u-joints and have it rebalanced by a reputable shop. However, a bad drive-line will not create a death wobble and you will usually always feel it in your seat only.<br />
<br />
Now that everything else is taken care of, down to the death wobble. In my experience, a front wobble is rare in any Toyota and I'd eliminate the rear first. Note that since no one, and I mean no one is making poly bushings for the rear of a third gen 4Runner, this can get ugly. Pull the pan-hard bar (lateral track bar). Inspect the bushings at both ends for distortion (an area of crush parallel to the bar itself is common), as well as dry rot and excessive cracking. Any of these....replace the bar. ($200) If you are handy, you might be able to take a universal poly bushing from energy suspension, daystar etc and trim to fit on a lathe. Mine had high hat rubber bushings from the factory, so washers were necessary to shim the bar correctly since no two piece high hats were out there when I looked. Replace the bolts with new, no matter what. The bolts take a beating, they wear and get 'loose'. If you have 1/32 inch play at one end, you have it at the other also and it's cumulative in effect. The wobble should disappear on the next test drive.<br />
<br />
IF not, then it's on to the lower control arms! 4Runners that do a lot of towing will show a symptom upon acceleration and deceleration where the front of the truck seems to 'steer' in one direction (to the right when accelerating) and then the opposite when letting off the gas. Once they hit 200k miles, the same. Heavy acceleration or supercharger abuse....control arm issues. The axle is moving forward and rearward on the drive side which means...Lower control arm bushings are shot. Like the bar, no one makes a Gen 3 urethane replacement. Toyota has the rubber OE, part number 48702-35070. Most parts guys will tell you they don't exist...or that they are only for one end. Not true and not true. Toyota OE control arms are anywhere from $137 to list price ($212) each. This is what they try to sell you. Ouch. Careful if you go to your local pick-a-part because you most likely get the same or worse condition. Many yards move their wrecks with forklifts and the lower arms take the hit. In my opinion, you may only have to replace the bushings on the dog bone that attaches to the axle. Replace both and test drive. If I'm wrong, replace the other two after the test drive fails. You might save a few bucks. Replacing the bushings is a shop job. I mean, you need a really good, 20 ton minimum press and adapters that fit what you're trying to accomplish. The bushings are 44 millimeters in diameter and you need something that will press that outer shell/ring without damaging the center that projects out from the bushing. I used an old motorcycle piston turned on a lathe and the center drilled out to fit.<br />
<br />
These lower control arms are mostly to keep the axle perpendicular to the center line of the frame, whereas the pan-hard is to keep the axle centered left to right under the frame. If there's enough slop in these lower arms, the axle wanders. The upper arms are for resistance to the rotation forces that can cause the axle to twist forward or backward. These will be the last to go since this force is minimal. But they do go.<br />
<br />
If you have done all of the above and still have the wobble you either missed something, or you have a broken frame or component mount (you missed something). Time for a new truck?
10-14-2013, 06:49 PM
#62
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SUCCESS!!!! It was the rear control arms. I replaced with some aftermarket bushings that match the Toyota design for $15 a piece and had a local machine shop press them in for $46. Easy in and out. Wish I would have started there. Oh well...hopefully this thread helps someone else. I will post up pictures if I get around to it, but basically what happened was the metal sleeve separated from the outer...originally held together with rubber, so it was sliding back and forth. The sleeve was bright and shiny from wear. I couldn't tell at all by looking and prying at them did not make it obvious. I basically had to take them off to know. ...a little hint- jack up the third member right near the pinion slightly to get the holes to line up on the control arm.
Last edited by IVrunner; 10-19-2013 at 06:19 PM.
10-14-2013, 06:50 PM
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SUCCUSS!!!! It was the rear control arms. I replaced with some aftermarket bushings that match the Toyota design for $15 a piece and had a local machine shop press them in for $46. Easy in and out. Wish I would have started there. Oh well...hopefully this thread helps someone else. I will post up pictures if I get around to it, but basically what gapped was the metal sleeve separated from the outer...originally held together with rubber. I couldn't tell at all by looking I had to take them off.
10-14-2013, 09:00 PM
#66
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That's great you solved the issue, I knew it had to be the control arm bushings. I just wish I would have seen this thread and spoke up sooner because how you described it was without a doubt what I had experienced. But as with all things a lesson lived is a lesson learned. Good deal, man
11-08-2013, 05:59 PM
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Hi guys
First post here after google searching my problem brought me to this great site.
My 99 4runner started what I would call the death wobble recently. Damn thing feels like Im going to crash over 40mph
Its weird because it doesnt do it under acceleration or on braking
It starts a weird side to side motion when I push clutch in shifting up or downshifting.
So after reading this thread I got underneath and found the left rear lower control arm bushing is MIA...
I can move the arm around with truck on the ground, its that loose.
So called Orieleys and Autozone and no luck.
What can I look for to replace it locally? Up aove he mentioned a 15 replacement so whats the secret?
Thanks all, glad to be here and appreciate the help
First post here after google searching my problem brought me to this great site.
My 99 4runner started what I would call the death wobble recently. Damn thing feels like Im going to crash over 40mph
Its weird because it doesnt do it under acceleration or on braking
It starts a weird side to side motion when I push clutch in shifting up or downshifting.
So after reading this thread I got underneath and found the left rear lower control arm bushing is MIA...
I can move the arm around with truck on the ground, its that loose.
So called Orieleys and Autozone and no luck.
What can I look for to replace it locally? Up aove he mentioned a 15 replacement so whats the secret?
Thanks all, glad to be here and appreciate the help
11-09-2013, 06:54 AM
#68
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Grumpy, The fact that you say "missing" has me a little worried. Picture? Here's is a link to Amazon where I bought my press-in Fabest bushings.
Im pretty sure Napa has them too and of course you can go to the dealer but get the part number because they'll say they can only sell you the whole arm. Good luck!
Im pretty sure Napa has them too and of course you can go to the dealer but get the part number because they'll say they can only sell you the whole arm. Good luck!
Last edited by IVrunner; 11-09-2013 at 06:56 AM.
11-09-2013, 08:25 AM
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By missing I mean the bushing has crumbled and turned back to earth lol
Ive called every parts store and dealer for 50 miles and nobody has one in stock.
So I guess I'll order from Amazon and wait.
I'll let ya know how it goes
Thanks
Ive called every parts store and dealer for 50 miles and nobody has one in stock.
So I guess I'll order from Amazon and wait.
I'll let ya know how it goes
Thanks
03-29-2014, 06:27 PM
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So i thought i would post an update. The new bushings i replaced in my lower control arms held up for awhile, but after about 10K miles i could tell they were going out just like the others. Now at 17K miles they are shot (yes, I have a long commute). They apparently have a one year warranty, but they need to be pressed in and out so its not going to be an easy return.
So, I am now debating whether or not to purchase the new arms with factory bushings, aftermarket, or dealing with the warranty....but at the same time also replacing the upper control arm bushings. thoughts? anyone else have the same problem??
So, I am now debating whether or not to purchase the new arms with factory bushings, aftermarket, or dealing with the warranty....but at the same time also replacing the upper control arm bushings. thoughts? anyone else have the same problem??
Last edited by IVrunner; 03-29-2014 at 06:32 PM.
12-24-2014, 02:48 AM
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So i thought i would post an update. The new bushings i replaced in my lower control arms held up for awhile, but after about 10K miles i could tell they were going out just like the others. Now at 17K miles they are shot (yes, I have a long commute). They apparently have a one year warranty, but they need to be pressed in and out so its not going to be an easy return.
So, I am now debating whether or not to purchase the new arms with factory bushings, aftermarket, or dealing with the warranty....but at the same time also replacing the upper control arm bushings. thoughts? anyone else have the same problem??
So, I am now debating whether or not to purchase the new arms with factory bushings, aftermarket, or dealing with the warranty....but at the same time also replacing the upper control arm bushings. thoughts? anyone else have the same problem??
I've read SO MANY threads on swaying and wobble and there are a lot of responses about sway bars, shocks/springs but not a lot recommending rear suspension being the culprit since most of the symptoms occur under torque- in the rear.
Long story short.. Body roll/sway at highway speeds over bumps.. look to REAR SUSPENSION components 1st.
Just my 2 cents.
05-07-2016, 05:15 PM
#74
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Recently I have been experiencing similar side to side sway as others in this thread. I have a 2001 Toyota 4runner, with 152k miles. I've ruled out any front end issues because the sway is distinct from the rear. The sway is initiated when I hit a bump at high speeds OR when I begin to accelerate or let off of the accelerator at speeds over 50 mph.
After initial inspection I know that the sway bar bushings are bad and I am not sure when the shocks have been replaced. Let me know what you guys think.
After initial inspection I know that the sway bar bushings are bad and I am not sure when the shocks have been replaced. Let me know what you guys think.
05-07-2016, 07:42 PM
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Recently I have been experiencing similar side to side sway as others in this thread. I have a 2001 Toyota 4runner, with 152k miles. I've ruled out any front end issues because the sway is distinct from the rear. The sway is initiated when I hit a bump at high speeds OR when I begin to accelerate or let off of the accelerator at speeds over 50 mph.
After initial inspection I know that the sway bar bushings are bad and I am not sure when the shocks have been replaced. Let me know what you guys think.
After initial inspection I know that the sway bar bushings are bad and I am not sure when the shocks have been replaced. Let me know what you guys think.
05-08-2016, 08:26 AM
#76
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