4bangercraig

Alright guys. Just looking for some confirmation before I sink cash into this.

About four or five times now at weekly or biweekly intervals, I've put the key in the truck as per usual, turned it, and heard nothing but a single 'dnk.' Each time I've messed with electrical connections and jumped the battery and continually tried turning the key and it's eventually started. (I've blamed the issue on everything from the battery, corroded grounds, and even carpet bunching up under the clutch pedal. Some people are stubborn)
But I tested my battery and it's fine. And last night in the Pine Valley OHV Park, the truck starting didn't time up with jumping it whatsoever. So it's clearly not a battery issue. And if it were, I wouldn't be hearing the starter trying to turn either...
The starter's almost brand new - I swapped it out about two months ago. So now I'm thinkin flywheel. If the flywheel's got a bad spot, maybe I'm occasionally landing on it and maybe turning the key enough times eventually moves it around past the bad spot and starts the truck. Maybe it was a crummy old flywheel that blew out my first starter in the first place...
So what do y'all think? Anything you can think of that I should check before I drop the tranny?
Or should I go ahead and order that 30 pound flywheel? ;-)

HighLux

Have you pulled the starter back off? look at the teeth on it....look at the teeth on the flywheel?
Rotate the engine a little at a time with a socket on the crank bolt with the coil wire off (safety) and inspect the teeth all the way around the flywheel.

1styota4X4

it wouldnt be the flywheel is the starter is not making any noise....you would hear some nasty noises as it grabbed hit borken teeth then tried to grab again.

xxxtreme22r

I agree, if it were bad flywheel teeth, the sound would be similar to what it would sound like if you hit start and the motor was already running. Or the flywheel would just spin if it were several missing teeth.

Have you checked the small positive wire that comes off the battery cable and goes into the fuse box? Might also be the starter relay starting to go on you as well.

tried4x2signN

starter relay...

vital22re

iTrader: (2)

are you sure your starter signal wire that goes to the starter from the starter relay is getting a full 12v when you turn the key? is it securely and properly connected to the starter?

xxxtreme22r

reading your original post again I got confused, can you hear the starter clicking and just not turning or are you just hearing the starter relay click. Or is the starter actually tuning. If the starter itself is clicking then the solenoid and small signal wire is fine, your problem would like in the main battery cable circuit.

Double check and make sure that it's actually the starter clicking and not the relay. Might need someone to help you out there. One way to tell if the starter is clicking is to hold your hand on it while someone turns the key. Just make sure your body parts are away from moving parts like the fan.

4bangercraig

Well, nothing like a good electrical gremlin...

Thanks. I'll try out that little test. I assumed the click was coming from the plunger and I was hearing the connection with the flywheel.

Recap-
The starter and solenoid are both new.
Battery's good.
When I'm in the 'stuck' condition, my headlights and brights function normally. So I'm skeptical that the problem's between the battery and fusebox
I also inspected the wiring between the battery and the starter - everything was secure and no wiring was visibly compromised.

Where can I check voltage in such a direct circuit? And with an issue so intermittent, would anything read abnormally?

What if isn't the starter circuit? I had a Ravelco installed - maybe now I got an ignition circuit bug.
Or perhaps the neutral start circuit?

And to get everything straight and everyone on the same page- I got a starter with a top-mounted solenoid. Now that means that 12v runs directly to the solenoid from the battery, ya? If that solenoid's bad, it's a NAPA lemon. Unless there's a relay in there somewhere I'm completely missing...

Flash319

rebuilt junk starter???

4bangercraig

Yeah I could try a junk starter for awhile and see if it stops happening.

But I got over Monday brain (or maybe just me brain) and got my head screwed on now in terms of how the starter circuit does its thang.
And I do recall back when I first bought the truck, I learned real quick to always use the clutch-start-cancel button to fire it up. It wouldn't always start otherwise. So I'm thinkin maybe I'll cover a few bases and replace the relay (passenger kick panel. Right.) and also bypass the clutch switch.
I'll leave the cancel switch and button in for posterity.

That'll hopefully be the practical answer.

But the theory behind it is still out there. Is it possible that the relay's been failing me as long as I've had it? Is there any way that could manifest itself through an intermittent failure in the clutch switch? Don't make sense to me but I'm not much of an electrician...

HighLux

Sometimes....(why I asked him to remove starter)
the starter can bind up on the flywheel.

4bangercraig

Alright y'all. I've done some serious googling and a little more poking around under the hood...

Apparently it's a fairly common old Yota issue. What happens is the starter gets hot, and the circuit fails. Truck won't start. Some folks hear the solenoid click, some don't. I do hear it click.
Pop the hood and let things cool down a little, heat resistance becomes a non-factor, and she starts right up.

So, solutions?

A. Bypass the starter circuit entirely and install a direct line between the battery and the starter solenoid with a push button under the dash.

Issues: I disconnected the signal wire and tried starting - got a real familiar experience. If the signal wire's failing, I'm not sure that a direct line to the solenoid will do diddley...

B. Replace the relay. Many people report success replacing the relay- but it's also well documented that if you hear the solenoid click, this 'shouldn't' work. But really, what's 'shouldn't' mean to a 25 year old truck?

Issues: Again, the signal wire. Also, while this might lower resistance in the total circuit, heat resistance under the hood will still be a factor and may eventually catch up to me. And where IS the relay? It ain't under the kick panel and at some point it's easier to replace the circuit than to disassemble the entire cab to fix it.

Clearly I'm gonna have to do some testing at the signal wire connection as well as the solenoid terminal- but things only gum up when the truck's real hot and even then only occasionally- testing's not real easy.
So whatchyall think? With an issue this intermittent, how would you hedge your bets, make a maximum number of overall improvements, and spend a minimum amount of money?
Anybody got a good idea for an alternative starting circuit? And where's that signal wire go?


Electrical gremlins- at least it's something to do at work...

DeathCougar

iTrader: (23)

Where did you get the "New" starter from?

Schucks/O Reily/Autozone/Napa= Take it out and throw that garbage away.

Those starters are notorious for being bad. People focus on the marketing on the package which says "Reman" or "rebuilt" but really, all they have to do it a replace an electrical connector and call it a "reman". I worked at schucks, and put one of their starters in my VW rabbit once. Thing was garbage, and anyone who has ever changed a starter on a VW rabbit knows how hard THAT is to do. Yanked it back out, and put a used starter from a wrecking yard in there. Viola! Problem solved.

And if your starter is overheating, you might have a heat issue under the hood. But whatever you do, don't go messing with stock wiring and bypassing relays simply because the truck doesn't start properly. Don't fix the symptom, fix the problem.

xxxtreme22r

hmmm, I do not have that problem on mine after replacing the contacts and plunger in the solenoid. Just sounds like you got a POS rebuilt non OEM starter and it needs to go back to the place you got it from. Then take that money, go pull one from the junk yard and put a new set of contacts and plunger in it and problem solved.

The should be absolutely no reason why you should have to bypass the solenoid and use a push button with a starter than is as old as you say it is.

4bangercraig

Yeah, y'all are right. It came from NAPA. Just reeeally don't wanna admit that I threw fifty bucks at that starter two months ago out of nothing but laziness.
So thanks for calling me out. Even if I did work around the symptoms- I'd end up having to replace it when I get around to installing that 35 pound flywheel...
Dang blast it.
"Might have a heat issue under the hood," huh? I might just take those words as license to cut a hole in it.

Now I'm starting to get a little nervous about my other emergency NAPA purchase as well...motor mounts. :-/

tried4x2signN

Of all the Toyota's I own, or have owned, the only "common" problems I know of are starters built so good they only need contacts, or a relay going bad...

And out of that I've been told several times a relay is either bad or good, there is no in between.

And I know for a fact that aint so. They can "go" out.

If it was me, I feel a salvage starter with contacts in it is a far better alternative than a re-man.

So I'd start with a factory starter, put contacts in it, and read post #6 again.

4bangercraig

Alright. Ordering the contacts kit from Toyota and a 30a relay from Amazon. I'll drive out to Pick-A-Part this weekend like I should've done in the first place.

How'd people maintain toyota trucks before yotatech? Inconceivable!
Thanks guys!

xxxtreme22r

is that starter still under NAPA warranty? if so take their junk back to them and get yur money back . Also pick up a plunger. It's pricey from the dealer, so try finding a starter/alternator rebuild shop around you and pick one up from them. You might be able to get the contacts as well cheaper than the dealer too.